The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hey everyone,

I had an idea recently. I was contemplating starting a recording business, in which some of my close friends and I would make records (I haven't decided whether I'll use the cylinder or disc format), and sell them. Then it occurred to me that almost no one I know personally owns a phonograph, antique or otherwise.

I've drawn up rudimentary designs for affordable disc and cylinder machines (which I will post once I figure out how to do so with the technology I have), but I'd love your input on this subject.

-Jack

What a wonderful idea! I've thought of doing both sometimes. The only barrier for recording is the price of record lathes, and the price of cutting and making home pressings of the records. On the phonograph production idea, the sky is the limit! I've attempted to produce a small tabletop internal horn machine that I based off the Berliner Hand Wind, but it never came together. By the way, I'm already interested in purchasing a cylinder machine of yours. Can't wait for the designs to come out!

I've considered doing something similar. I think it's going to always be a very niche market... the people most likely to buy such machines, other than collectors, probably will want them to play their classic or indie vinyl - most people wouldn't see any point in buying a machine that only plays antique or obscure, proprietary records, which is what 78s are anymore. Cylinders even more so. By the same token, it makes no sense for most people to buy obsolete record formats that likely don't even have the music they want.

That said, if your research leads to the conclusion that there is *enough* of a market for such an activity to support itself and be profitable, then by all means I would suggest its pursuit.

winsleydale wrote:I've considered doing something similar. I think it's going to always be a very niche market... the people most likely to buy such machines, other than collectors, probably will want them to play their classic or indie vinyl - most people wouldn't see any point in buying a machine that only plays antique or obscure, proprietary records, which is what 78s are anymore. Cylinders even more so. By the same token, it makes no sense for most people to buy obsolete record formats that likely don't even have the music they want.

That said, if your research leads to the conclusion that there is *enough* of a market for such an activity to support itself and be profitable, then by all means I would suggest its pursuit.

It may work but how hard would it be to design one that plays both. A hybrid one. Then people will play what they want and compare the old to the new. Just a thought. Tom B

If Victor A's initiative ever became the subject of a crowd-funding project (which might be one way to set it going), I for one would happily guarantee a substantial contribution.

May I offer a few suggestions?

1. In the case of a cylinder player, let the motor include a flywheel to stabilise the speed in the same way that the turntable of a gramophone does. If this were mounted horizontally under the motor with a bevel-drive, it would add little to the bulk of the machine; the case would have to be an inch or so taller, and that is all. Such a machine would have a built-in advantage over all existing phonographs apart from Edison's 'Opera' and a few Amberol models of 1909–14 (the only original spring-driven machines, as far as I know, ever to carry flywheels).

2. If in addition the reproducer were to incorporate the various design improvements developed for disc sound-boxes in the 1920s, such as a contoured aluminium diaphragm of reasonable size, the result would be a machine which was not a mere imitation of antiquity but enabled cylinder owners to get unprecedented results from their records without the need for complex electronics or an enormous horn. If the usual Edison-style hanging weight were replaced by a spring-loaded device whose tension could be increased and reduced at will by turning a screw, and if this were combined with an easy system for changing the stylus (perhaps a simple push-in fitting like that found on Pathé disc sound-boxes), one reproducer could be safely used with cylinders of all periods.

3. Perhaps the people in India who build imitation horn gramophones could be induced to take part in the manufacture of this new generation of phonograph. We are all very scathing about these pseudo-H.M.Vs, but there must be some kind of factory system and a certain amount of technical knowledge behind them; and who can say that the companies concerned would not be willing to improve their standards and involve themselves in something respectable for a change, provided they could be convinced that in doing so they would raise their profiles and would not actually lose money in the process? After all, the watchmakers of Switzerland used to be similarly regarded as purveyors of cheap rubbish (often imitations of English watches) until they successfully re-invented themselves as serious craftspeople in the late nineteenth century. On a smaller scale, this could happen again.

Oliver Mundy.

Some very good ideas, there, Menophanes.

Thank you everyone, these replies are very helpful. I'd love to comment on all of them, but I'm running short on time this morning.

Concerning Oliver's ideas for a reproducer, I thought maybe something modeled after Brunswick's Ultona reproducer, where a simple turn and adjustment of spring (as opposed to the weight design), would allow people to play any type of standard cylinder (or any kind of disc). And perhaps maybe a few marks by the screw to denote which type of record can be played at that setting?


Once again, all of these ideas are excellent, and thank you all!

One more thing. I need some advice on motors. Oliver's flywheel idea for a cylinder machine was great, but I am not very skilled with them, and could definitely use some help with the subject.

-Jack

Victor A wrote:I need some advice on motors. Oliver's flywheel idea for a cylinder machine was great, but I am not very skilled with them, and could definitely use some help with the subject. -Jack

Could something be done with an ordinary gramophone motor of the pillar-and-plate variety, complete with turntable, simply turned upside-down? Obviously one would have to contrive some means of preventing the turntable, which is now underneath, from dropping straight off its spindle. (Some portable machines have a built-in solution to this, namely a spring circlip which engages in a slot on the spindle and holds the turntable in place.)

The next problem would be to convert the 80 r.p.m. (or thereabouts) of the gramophone motor to a speed of 160 r.p.m. at the mandrel. This could be done by mounting a pulley on what is now the upper end of the turntable spindle (which will have to be extended) and then, above the motor-board, fitting a second pulley of exactly half the size of the other. If the phonograph is to have the normal horizontal mandrel, then this upper pulley must be mounted vertically, and the belt or O-ring which links the two pulleys will have to be taken round the right-angle between them by means of what I think are called jockey wheels, very much as Edison did in his early electrically-driven machines. The upper pulley is fixed to one end of the mandrel shaft. However, I have long dreamed of another and much more radical solution, which is to stand the mandrel on end so that the reproducer will traverse up and down rather than from left to right. The advantages of this are twofold: it gives the machine a smaller footprint (though admittedly it would also be rather tall), and it does away with the need for a drive-belt; the two pulleys and belt can be replaced by two directly interlocking gear-wheels, the first (on the spindle) having twice as many teeth as the other (on the mandrel shaft).

That is probably enough from me for now.

Oliver Mundy.

Menophanes wrote: However, I have long dreamed of another and much more radical solution, which is to stand the mandrel on end so that the reproducer will traverse up and down rather than from left to right. The advantages of this are twofold: it gives the machine a smaller footprint (though admittedly it would also be rather tall), and it does away with the need for a drive-belt; the two pulleys and belt can be replaced by two directly interlocking gear-wheels, the first (on the spindle) having twice as many teeth as the other (on the mandrel shaft).

That is probably enough from me for now.

Oliver Mundy.

That is quite a radical idea, although while doing some research, I stumbled upon the "Phonograph Makers' Pages" and found a vertical player!

http://www.christerhamp.se/phono/symposium.html

Also, I had an idea that may solve the problem concerning formats. Perhaps my machine could have a spring-wound, cubular device that, with some gearings to change from 160 to 80 rpm's, and speed adjustments for cylinder and disc (so that 80 may be changed to 78 for the standard records, and 160 can be changed to the wildly varying speeds of early cylinders).

This device could be attached at specific points to the cylinder or disc apparatus (on the same machine)


Then, my machine would have capability for all formats of disc and cylinder! Although, this may drive up the price, so perhaps the cubular motor could be attached to different machines, rather than the same apparatus.

One more thing. While on the Phonograph Makers' Pages, I came across this machine:

http://www.christerhamp.se/phono/ifukube.html

I am intrigued by this portable machine with the apparatus built into the case! Perhaps this would be an interesting concept to base the cylinder machine on?

I too have considered a few times what a home designed internal horn disc machine might look like. I have mostly wondered about how the horn might be improved for acoustic recordings or even electrical versions.

I fear that the market would be pretty slim. The current state of records seems to be that yes, a rare desirable record is going to sell, but a run of the mill selection seems pretty much dead and I wonder if it will ever recover. As the older collectors pass on there doesn't seem to be a large enough set of buyers left who are willing to pay top prices. So the existing machines will struggle to find homes the more we loose the devoted collectors we now have. I could be wrong, but it would take an awful lot of young faces at the phonograph shows to make up for the sea of retirees that are mostly attending now.