The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I'm new to this hobby and I think I'm hooked. I purchased my first machine - a Starr floor model about 3 weeks ago then last week I purchase a Victor VV-XI. My wife is saying that the Starr needs to go so I said ok but let's move it to the living room for the time being (haha).

I apologize if this is a little long winded.

I’m getting a thumping sound on wind down so I’m looking for any suggestions for the process of removing, cleaning and greasing the mainspring in my VV – XI. I believe it has two springs in a single spring barrel. How difficult is it to get the springs out and back in. Just looking at the barrel it looks like the bottom spring may be the difficult one to get back in. But that’s just an observation since I never done this before so I don’t know what to expect.

Does anyone know what direction the springs are wound and what tools I should have handy to remove them correctly. I am well versed on working on heavy mechanical equipment etc… so I think I can handle this job but I’d like some direction on what to look for on this specific piece of equipment. I want to do it right.

Any suggestion regarding what type of grease is the best for the springs. My mainsprings are releasing with a thumping sound and although the record keeps playing ok it may be causing damage. I’ve used several different types of grease in the past and found that one grease may not be suitable or the best choice for all applications. I know we want the spring to wind down smoothly so we want a grease that allows the spring bands to release without it having to fight the grease. I’m not sure if that makes sense.

What I have in mind: Either multi-purpose heavy wheel bearing grease or white lithium grease. Let me know if there are better options. The multi purpose regular grease is what I consider a heavy grease because it’s thicker and tacky. This is great stuff when you want the grease to stay put in rough environments that is subject to rain, high temperatures etc… The white lithium that I have tends to be more of a smooth creamy consistency and not as tacky. I usually use this for lighter applications where extreme outdoor elements are not a factor. These are just my observations.

What lubrication (grease and oil) do you suggest for the worm gear and bearings?
3 in 1, Singer sewing machine oil, synthetic motor oil? I know Singer is heavy in Paraffin’s (65%) according to their MSDS sheet. Paraffin’s tend to leave a waxy residue but in this application it might work ok. I use 3 in 1 on some of my small equipment with some mixed observations. I used a few drops of Mobil one oil on a turntable bearing in the past and it worked very well.

My machine like most others has been neglected over the years. When I picked this one up the crank handle was frozen on there as if it was welded on. I got it off with some advice on this forum (Thanks Henry) so I’m sure it hasn’t been lubricated in many years - maybe even decades. But it still runs – This is an absolute testament to the great build quality of these Victors. I want to do everything to get this back in pristine working condition.

Thanks,
Dave

Others who've actually done this, as I haven't, will be posting here, I'm sure. But in addition, there's a book! In fact, there is more than one book, but the one I know about, because I own it (as do many), is Baumbach's "Look For The Dog" (rev. 5th ed., 2005, lovingly referred to as LFTD), which tells all about rewinding springs, in Victor's own words, on pp. 264-270 (note p. 268, 2 Spring motors). If you need a copy of this one, go to http://www.mulhollandpress.com/.

I will take your advice and order the book today. I'm looking forward to reading it. I hope I can get some real world advice on what to expect and things to watch out for.

I've cleaned and rebuilt a couple of Victor motors. It's not exactly brain surgery, but it can be a pain. I did rebuild a two spring motor like the one you describe. Getting the spring in is a little of a pain, but not really that bad. I don't recall what direction they went in, but I do recommend you pay close attention, draw a diagram, and take pictures...saves time in case you later lose the drawing, can't figure out what you drew, or what not, and then put one of the springs in backwards, and then have to take it back out, and reassemble all over again. Oddly enough, I've found the biggest pain is getting the round retention spring/wire, that holds the lid on the spring barrel. I'm sure there is a trick to it. I just haven't figure it out, and wasted many an hour trying to get it back in right.

As for grease, I've used some sort of an automotive lubricant...I believe it could have been bearing lube. It was for a machine I was selling cheap, and it was what I had handy. Victor originally used a mix of powdered graphite and petroleum jelly. I think APSCO sells it premixed. I've also seen some folks use that semi-transparent red coloured auto lube. Don't think I've ever noticed a difference between them. I've used the same lubricant for all parts. In the barrel and on the gears. Never felt the sewing machine oil had much "stick" to it.

In general, when taking things apart, never force them, and be careful taking out the governor. It has tiny little pins on either end that can easily snap (happened to me a couple of times). Generally just take your time, make sure the motor has completely wound down before starting to take it apart, and be careful when taking the spring out...AND WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!!! A spring that hasn't completely wound down, or you lose control of can go flying, and do some real damage. Wearing work gloves while dealing with the spring might also be a pretty good idea.

I spent yesterday regreasing the mainsprings. I first thought there was only one barrel with two springs but there were two separate barrels. I had to re-think my plan and make up some drawings and took some additional pictures. The removal was fairly easy except for the lock rings that hold the spring covers in place. They were on there tight but after about 10 minutes I was able to pry loose. Re-installing them was difficult as well. I had someone help me putting them back on.

I found no grease on the mainsprings. I guess over the years it just evaporated. The springs had stubborn dried on grease which came off by soaking in Naphtha and some scrubbing. I really spent a lot of time cleaning both sides of the springs to make sure I got all the dried on grease off.

I removed the first spring from the barrell and placed it in a large pan filled with the Naptha and went about scrubbing it right away. On the second spring I decided to soak it for about an hour or so while still in the barrel. In my case this made a big difference in loosening things up. The second spring was a lot easier to clean. Soaking is the key.

While cleaning I had someone hold the spring to prevent it from moving all over the place. This made things not only go faster but allowed me to really focus on cleaning.

Inserting the springs back into the barrels was straight forward. I found it easier to have someone hold the spring while I loaded it back in. I ended up using mobil 1 red wheel bearing grease that I picked up at the auto parts store.

I re-installed everything and all went well. No more of that loud thumping sound. It also runs much smoother and quiter.

Good job! Should have had you do mine!

What's the status of your sound box rebuild at this point?

It took me all day but it was worth it. I have the parts for the rebuild and plan on working on it this week. Did you rebuild your own?

No, I sent it out, and Victrola Repair Service did a pretty good job, then I "fine-tuned" it. It sounds great! See my post on this thread:

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... 26&start=0

Scroll down page one; the sound box discussion starts near the bottom of the page.

I finished the Exhibition rebuild and although it went slower than I anticipated everything turned out fine. I ordered the parts from Walt Sommers and all appeared to be high quality. It sounds great now.
The original gaskets were like concrete and the mica had a small piece that was broken off on the edge.