The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

After several months of labor and the input of several prominent dealers in antique phonographs, the APS has posted a DRAFT price guide on the web site:

https://www.antiquephono.org/

There is no tab for this yet, but scroll down the Home Page and you'll see it ("APS Price Guide - Public View).

Non-members, or those not logged in, can also see it under Articles / Introductory and Members, logged in, will see it under Articles / Technical Series.

Please look it over and feel free to offer comments directly to Mike Sherman at:

[email protected]

Tip: When I bring up this document, I click the little round "-" button on the lower right. Twice will reduce the document to 80% and that makes everything readable. Your mileage may vary.

Also - read the simple instructions. Most of us are guys, and "...we don't need no stinkin' instructions..." but believe me, you'll understand everything immediately if you invest 60 seconds in reading the instructions.

Thanks to Mike Sherman for pulling most of the weight on this. The APS believes that making value ranges available to the general public and to beginning collectors will increase their confidence and ultimately benefit our hobby.

This is a work in progress, and your feedback will help make this resource as helpful as possible.

Best to all,
George Paul

I took a look at the DRAFT. I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of a standardized price guide. My first reaction was; it really depends on what you are selling and who wants to buy it more than some standardized value. I think that perhaps it would help buyers more than sellers. Am I wrong on this?

Also, it seems to me that it varies quite a lot in different parts of the world and even regions within individual countries. I am not saying I am against the idea, just not sure at first glance that it will really help things much. I think I need to ponder the idea a bit longer.

It is obvious lots of hard work has gone into the effort so far. So, kudos to those that are working on it. I will be interested to see others reactions to the document.

Downloaded the draft, and will read it as time permits.

In principle, a price guide is useful in determining a ballpark estimate for a particular machine, if you allow for degrees of condition and, to some degree, rarity.

In practice, the factor of desirability is somewhat less predictable: it is a more subjective variable.

Bill

George, please thank everyone involved, as I'm sure a price guide will be generally indispensable, and no simple task to compile.

Happy Holidays!

Fran

I'm not a big fan of price guides, but that's just my two cents.....

briankeith wrote:I'm not a big fan of price guides, but that's just my two cents.....

I admit that I'm not either!

When this idea was first floated, I wasn't supportive, but facts are facts. A few years ago, the coin collecting industry was wavering in the face of fakery, an aging collector base, and general indifference to antiquity (sound familiar?). However, a serious coin collecting organization promoted several steps - including a readily-available guide to values - which stabilized the environment, and instilled confidence in established and new collectors. Today the coin collecting community is vibrant. The stamp collecting industry has not taken similar steps, and by all accounts is on the ropes.

Again, Mike Sherman (noted Victor Record and Edison Disc expert and author) is the guy who convinced me (and several others I'm sure) that this was a responsible step to take. In addition, he has put his sweat into the project, as well as his expertise in the development of the coin collecting value guide. We're lucky to have him at work on this.

Thanks for all the comments thus far - keep them coming!

Best to all,
George P.

Great work, George. You and Mike have done an excellent job putting this draft together. As someone who typically buys and sells more than a hundred phonographs each year, I think your ranges are for the most part rooted in reality and that your database will prove useful to those who'd like to take advantage of it.

-- Grant

Published and printed Guides are problematic, in that they are static and cannot be modified once in-print.

This Guide is dynamic, online and can be modified as conditions warrant.

rodpickett wrote:Published and printed Guides are problematic, in that they are static and cannot be modified once in-print.

This Guide is dynamic, online and can be modified as conditions warrant.

Exactly. Which is why this project is so worthwhile. And was such a good idea.

-- Grant

As my name has been kindly mentioned by a few here, I thought I’d share some of my thoughts on this price guide idea.

Price guides by their very nature, are controversial. Sellers naturally want to see high listed prices to maximize their margins. Buyers often don’t mind lower listed prices to make objects they're looking for appear more affordable. Reaching a happy medium that pleases all aint easy.

Prices are dependent on numerous factors. Most important is condition. This often accounts for differences of several hundred percent between a rough machine, and one in near mint condition. Location matters, as transportation of antique phonographs (especially floor models) is neither easy nor cheap. Larger floor models may be an easier sell in the midwest where land is cheaper, and homes are generally bigger.

Certainly the “price” of any collectible is set when a willing buyer and a willing seller reach agreement. That is not to say however that all sales are random and that any price is right. There are general ranges where knowledgeable sellers and buyers typically meet. It it our belief that by making this information available will serve to draw new buyers into the hobby by giving them the confidence to actively participate.

The founder of the company I work for (Professional Coin Grading Service) is a veteran of numerous collectible hobbies ranging from old records, to baseball cards to antique vases, stamps and coins. He is as informed and knowledgable about the collectibles business as anyone I’ve met, and he has a frequent saying: “The more you tell, the more you sell.”

In certain hobbies, many of the professionals jealously guard market information, and are quite secretive about rarity and value. In other hobbies, information is widely available and the market is quite transparent. Guess which hobbies are thriving, and which ones are withering?

Do price guides sometimes hurt a dealer trying to make a big score? Sure. But a hobby is not well served by a few dealers making a few big hits every year. A hobby grows when information is readily accessible to many, and both novice and intermediate collectors feel confident in what they’re buying. And when a hobby grows, demand grows, and prices generally rise.

Everyone who’s been collecting phonographs for a while (45 years in my case) saw prices generally rise during the 70s and 80s, then level off, and then soften over the past 5 to 10 years. Demographics are not working in our favor, and unless we draw new blood into the hobby, Edison Standards and Homes could well be worth half of what they are today in another decade or two.

I welcome any and all input into this guide. I am not a full time dealer in old phonographs, and while I believe I understand the collectibles markets pretty well, I have still plenty to learn. The APS has set up the email address: [email protected] specifically for feedback and suggestions on this guide. I look forward to hearing from you.

P.S. Some of you may enjoy a little article I wrote a couple months ago on my company’s website:

https://www.pcgs.com/news/a-story-of-rarity-and-value