The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Of course I know the saying, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. A very kind person knew I was "into" records and loved old stuff, so he gave me a gramophone he had in his shed. I was kind of excited, but when I picked it up, I was fairly certain it was a cheap copy. Of course, I was gracious and thanked him. I could not tell him what it really was. I have attached a picture below. The only odd thing was that it looked quite old. It had wear and tear like it had been used a bit. The brass of the horn is well tarnished, not like the shiny new ones you see being sold as ornaments.

So, I took it home. I tried to wind it up, but the spring was broken, so I just left it for the night. This morning I pulled it apart to see just what was in it. First thing, I pulled on the platter and the whole shaft came out of the motor with it. Odd, I thought. So I opened up the box, and as I tilted it up, pieces fell out of the motor - they were the gear that drives the governor, and the 2 collars that held it in place. The motor has the brand Collaro on it, and looks decidedly well used. The spring housing is severely bruised from attempts to open it, and the gears on the main shaft (that came out) are very worn. So, just about a total loss.

The sound box seemed to be in good condition however. The arm was nicely plated and moved very smoothly in all directions. The horn was as usually described, thin and roughly made.

I sat back and thought about it. Here I had a decent enough box and arm. I knew I had a nice Garrard motor under my bench from a portable fixup I had done earlier (story for another time). So, for the sake of 4 holes drilled, I fitted the motor to this box. I wound her up, and played a few. I was surprised at the loudness and clarity of the (assumed knockoff) sound box.

...and so a crap-o-phone becomes something at least usable. I might even attempt to construct a better horn. Doesn't need to be as big even, this thing is loud anyway.

So, there ya go. My first post here is a story about possibly wasting time on a junk box, but it has been fun. What do you think about the provenance of it. Little doubt I think that it is a fake. Maybe it was one of their first (they started making fakes in the 70s or so didn't they?), and someone has been using it, hence it looks aged. Maybe the Collaro motor is an old one reused from a portable as I read they do that. It certainly looks worn out now.

I believe that a piece is only as valuable, monetarily or otherwise, as the owner considers it. However, with that being said...
as for me...I believe the onset of manufacturing of these types of items has resulted in the partial collapse of our hobby. Had they not, and still are, been touted as "old", or "antique", or "rare"...or any other attempt to deceive the naïve buyer, possibly my opinion would not be as harsh.

The most obvious giveaways are :

The crude butt jointed elbow.

The Collaro motor. HMV made their own.

The use of an HMV trademark design which did not appear until 1928.

Those are the main bad points, but the good point is that it was free!

Welcome to the hobby! Yes, it's a Crapophone, but that's o.k., it was free and given with friendship & good intentions. Therein lies the value!

A local antique shop owner has a knack for finding these and not realizing what they are. I've fixed up a couple for her by adding a decent reproducer and fixing up the tone arm swivels, which are normally a mess. They played well and she sold them for an honest price, with an honest description. All that is to say that it can be made at least dependable and useable.

Hopefully, it will spark an interest in the real thing and you'll be a regular here!

Merry Christmas!

JerryVan wrote:Welcome to the hobby! Yes, it's a Crapophone, but that's o.k., it was free and given with friendship & good intentions. Therein lies the value!

A local antique shop owner has a knack for finding these and not realizing what they are. I've fixed up a couple for her by adding a decent reproducer and fixing up the tone arm swivels, which are normally a mess. They played well and she sold them for an honest price, with an honest description. All that is to say that it can be made at least dependable and useable.

Hopefully, it will spark an interest in the real thing and you'll be a regular here!

Merry Christmas!

Thank you.

Actually, this isn't my first machine. I did fix up a nice little portable that will photograph and post about as well.

Hailey wrote:I believe that a piece is only as valuable, monetarily or otherwise, as the owner considers it. However, with that being said...
as for me...I believe the onset of manufacturing of these types of items has resulted in the partial collapse of our hobby. Had they not, and still are, been touted as "old", or "antique", or "rare"...or any other attempt to deceive the naïve buyer, possibly my opinion would not be as harsh.

I agree that they are sold in very deceptive ways. I am wondering if it didn't start innocently enough, with a desire to simply build and sell a cheap machine for the local market as the original manufacturers were out of the picture. Of course, tourists would have started buying them naively, and so the market grew.

epigramophone wrote:The most obvious giveaways are :

The crude butt jointed elbow.

The Collaro motor. HMV made their own.

The use of an HMV trademark design which did not appear until 1928.

Those are the main bad points, but the good point is that it was free!

Yes, it has all those points. I didn't think, but yes, no way HMV would have used someone else's motor.

Just a contrary view here which granted is not one we much think about. For some of us the fun is restoring the old and original victrolas or horn type machines, be it cylinder of disc. Our hobby varies some by those who prefer Victor to all others, Some tend to like Pathé, or HMV or Edison. Then along comes the "crapophone" as many call it. Perhaps designed to deceive the those not familiar with vintage machines. Buy your story is somewhat refreshing in that no matter who made it or why, if you find it and enjoy it then its special to you. I often have saved poor machines I could afford and been very pleased to play them. Granted that they were all vintage originals but none the less not "collectable's" in the usual sense. Its too bad the one you have is in such poor shape, no doubt you would enjoy playing it just for what it is. Something we don't think about much.

larryh wrote:Just a contrary view here which granted is not one we much think about. For some of us the fun is restoring the old and original victrolas or horn type machines, be it cylinder of disc. Our hobby varies some by those who prefer Victor to all others, Some tend to like Pathé, or HMV or Edison. Then along comes the "crapophone" as many call it. Perhaps designed to deceive the those not familiar with vintage machines. Buy your story is somewhat refreshing in that no matter who made it or why, if you find it and enjoy it then its special to you. I often have saved poor machines I could afford and been very pleased to play them. Granted that they were all vintage originals but none the less not "collectable's" in the usual sense. Its too bad the one you have is in such poor shape, no doubt you would enjoy playing it just for what it is. Something we don't think about much.

I think you nailed it. I have a compulsion to make the best of whatever machine I am dealing with. For example, I have been know to tweak up Garrard record changers from the 50s and 60s to the point that they can use magnetic cartridges at light tracking weights and play good records without damaging them.

I would look at the kind intentions that your friend took to give you this phonograph. Eventually, you will find a motor or swap one, but you would have to plug and veneer over the holes. I would get that machine working and show it to your friend. I would play some records on it and let them know this is a memento of the friendship.
Harvey Kravitz