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I have had this phonograph for many years. I bought it when I was just starting out and didnt know all the warning signs. The horn, back bracket and tone arm are all doctored HMV parts. Anyone have an opinion of the rest of it? In one picture, where the back bracket is removed, you can see another set of older holes and the faint impression of a different back bracket which makes me think there is a chance this at one time was a complete machine. I bought it from a dealer in England so I suspect it would be European parts. The motor is a double spring, no extra drill holes under the turn table.No maker name. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Interesting! That cabinet was never for a gramophone originally, I'm sure. It looks suspiciously like a typical Art Nouveau period pot cupboard to me. I see these cabinets everywhere but they're not for gramophones or any other talking machine. They turn up in antique shops. It might even be a music cupboard, it's hard to say without seeing inside it. They are certainly a common pattern.

It certainly doesn't look right to my eyes. The motor is familiar but as I'm no motor watcher, I can't say off hand. Is it a total hack job? I'd have to say yes sadly. HMV parts mixed with non-HMV motor/turntable/speed control/winder etc and mounted on a non gramophone cabinet: very knocked together.

Who was the dealer?

Hi Steve,

I definitely know the horn, tone arm, and bracket are all wrong. The presence of an additional set of holes in the back and the impression of a different back bracket was the only reason I wondered if it could have been original. The inside has one shelf in the middle. I forget the dealers name, this was years ago, but he sells on ebay still. Usually with one line of description and poorly photographed in his phonograph shop. He told me it was all original at the time... original parts but didnt say not originally together!

Yep, looks like a potty cupboard to me too.
The motor appears to be by Garrard, the speed control is by Thorens, and I'm pretty sure the brake is by Paillard. What a mismatch of parts lol.
I've posted a picture below of the matching Thorens brake that is usually found on machines with that speed control.

I wouldn't quite say it's a hack job, that would depend on just how long ago it was done- it somewhat reminds me of the Douglas Co. which would fit Victor mechanisms into elaborate art cases. This seems to have been done with some care and is at least attractive. Does it function well?

I definitely know the horn, tone arm, and bracket are all wrong. The presence of an additional set of holes in the back and the impression of a different back bracket was the only reason I wondered if it could have been original. The inside has one shelf in the middle. I forget the dealers name, this was years ago, but he sells on ebay still. Usually with one line of description and poorly photographed in his phonograph shop. He told me it was all original at the time... original parts but didnt say not originally together!

Don't be confused by the additional set of holes. It simply suggests that the clown who put this together had tried something earlier before fitting the HMV bracket. Now you've confirmed the presence of a single shelf, I'm inclined to agree with gramophoneshane that it's a 'potty cupboard', very typical of its era.

It is DEFINITELY not an original machine of any pedigree. It's a high quality (price?) Crap-O-phone though, if that makes it any easier to swallow. The seller must be David Smith by your description, who is identified as 'oldtecnics' on Ebay.

I doubt this was put together by the seller though (he doesn't usually lift a cloth to wipe over anything let alone fabricate machines), more likely some other trader with parts assembled it and sold it to him as a 'complete machine'. It wouldn't matter a jot to him, exactly what it was so long as it had a potential market, which by the 1980's it would have almost certainly have had.

I had thought to suggest earlier that the motor might be Garrard as Shane suggested BUT didn't Garrard normally mark its motors with the name? It is an utterly hopeless cobble up, although undoubtably 100 times better than any subsequent Chinese / Indian 'repros' by virtue of the decent quality parts used and the 'contemporary' cabinet into which they're placed.

I was thinking about the Garrard (or even Columbia) name being absent from the bottom plate too, but then some are only marked Garrard on the top surface of the casting as in the picture below, and it wouldn't be seen unless the motor was removed from the board.
Garrard is also the only company that used that style of governor weight (on the underside of the spring) that I'm aware of too. The turntable edge profile & even the winder knob are also typical Garrard.
There are of course the modern copies of the Garrard no.30 motor that are being used in new crapophones, but this motor doesn't appear to be of the same poor quality, nor do they use the Garrard turntable.

Getting back to the cupboard, I'm doubtful that the top is original to the carcase. I've never seen a potty cubboard that has a shaped edge along the back, so I suspect it is actually a table top.
Judging by the style & period of the cupboard, I think it probably started life with a marble top in black or heavy red graining.

Another dead giveaway that this was a "backyard" job in my mind, is the absence of any type of board underneath the motor to prevent oil & grease dripping down onto your records.
Depending on the price paid, I guess it's not a total loss. From what I can see, the back bracket, horn & tonearm look like they belong together, and they are pretty saleable & sort after in their own right.

Potty cupboard=crap-o-phone. Now that is really hilarious, and not a bad looking job either. Hmmm, the world's first musical port-a-potty, I wonder if that's been patented already??

The ebay seller name oldtecnics sounds right! Thanks for all the clarification. It never seemed right to me either, but I do like the look of the machine, and the idea of a floor model outside horn machine too. I guess it would be best if the top parts were European/swiss. At least it would look less cobbled that way. The victor parts are so recognizable. It was expensive.... don't think I would be able to recoup my losses. Live and learn!

USlakeside wrote:The ebay seller name oldtecnics sounds right! Thanks for all the clarification. It never seemed right to me either, but I do like the look of the machine, and the idea of a floor model outside horn machine too. I guess it would be best if the top parts were European/swiss. At least it would look less cobbled that way. The victor parts are so recognizable. It was expensive.... don't think I would be able to recoup my losses. Live and learn!

If you do like the looks (it is not bad) you might see about trading the Vistor parts for some Swiss fittings- one of those embossed peacock feather horns would work nicely.