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The A Side: How The Time Can Fly, by The Troubadours was recorded June 12, 1931 and is marked with the VE inside a diamond signifying the new process. While the B Side: June Time Is Love Time by Bert Lown and His Hotel Biltmore Orchestra was recorded on June 16, 1931 and USN marked with the older VE inside an oval. I was just curious if anyone had some input. Was the engineer purposely choosing a different recording style and marking the matrix accordingly, possibly a slip up or maybe something else. I just think this is the only electric I’ve seen this on and even though it’s only a matter of days, I found it odd that the later recording is the one marked in the older fashion. Thoughts? Edit: the only other difference I could find is that the B Side was recorded in New York Studio Two as opposed to Studio one where the A Side was recorded.

One studio had the upgraded equipment while the other did not. That must have been one of the very first newer process electric recordings made.

I think the Hotel Biltmore leader was actually Bert Lown, correct?

gramophone-georg wrote:One studio had the upgraded equipment while the other did not. That must have been one of the very first newer process electric recordings made.

I think the Hotel Biltmore leader was actually Bert Lown, correct?

Here is a question that maybe deserves another thread..What is the opinion of the rest of the group on the sound difference between the VE oval and VE diamond?
To me the 1931-1932 victors sound harsh ..Is it just me?

On a related unrelated matter, the 1929-1930 west coast (Hal Roach Studios) for me have a nicer sound.

you are correct, it is Lown, not Logan as the auto-correct mistakenly altered. I may have to do some in depth listening to my orthophonic collection to be able to accurately chime in on that. I only recently discovered that DAHR website that so easily allows you to research recording dates through a variety of inputs such as matrix number, title or even performer. My experience is that I typically don't take note of the difference in the VE label when I play a record. Additionally, it seems the records I have seem to vary considerably in their mastering technique. In both variations of the VE I have some that I know off hand that sound very good to my ear and some that sound either harsh, or tinny. I will say that on my better records bearing the diamond VE, I think I usually notice a stronger presence in the higher register. I say this because I don't particularly care for it. I prefer a recording that has a warmth to it. It is even noticeable on the 40's reissues too in my experience. Some of those diamond VEs just have a higher contrast as opposed to the the oval VE pressings in general. This doesn't apply to every recording because like I said, it seems that in my collection at least- there is varying traits in both versions of the electrical process. Interesting note on the West Coast recordings. I'll be curious to see if I have any in my collection that I can attest to your theory with.

victor 15-1 wrote:

gramophone-georg wrote:One studio had the upgraded equipment while the other did not. That must have been one of the very first newer process electric recordings made.

I think the Hotel Biltmore leader was actually Bert Lown, correct?

Here is a question that maybe deserves another thread..What is the opinion of the rest of the group on the sound difference between the VE oval and VE diamond?
To me the 1931-1932 victors sound harsh ..Is it just me?

On a related unrelated matter, the 1929-1930 west coast (Hal Roach Studios) for me have a nicer sound.

What are you playing them on?

gramophone-georg wrote:

victor 15-1 wrote:

gramophone-georg wrote:One studio had the upgraded equipment while the other did not. That must have been one of the very first newer process electric recordings made.

I think the Hotel Biltmore leader was actually Bert Lown, correct?

Here is a question that maybe deserves another thread..What is the opinion of the rest of the group on the sound difference between the VE oval and VE diamond?
To me the 1931-1932 victors sound harsh ..Is it just me?

On a related unrelated matter, the 1929-1930 west coast (Hal Roach Studios) for me have a nicer sound.

What are you playing them on?

1928-1929 vintage electric phonographs

Isn't the diamond VE when Victor started using RCA built stuff, rather than WE ? They were able to capture higher frequencies. I don't think that period of records sound harsh when played on modern kit. Never heard one on a period electric phono.

I'm wondering if it might be shellac quality more than anything else.

1931-33 was the bowels of the Depression and I noticed a marked change in shellac quality between about early 1930 and onwards- a lot of these records got "grainy" in my experience and it seems to have to do with the quality of materials they were pressing with. This just so happened to correspond with the transition from the round to diamond "VE". The other issue that started showing up was the annoying "Victor whistle" in the last bar or so of the music through the dead grooves.

My understanding on the logo change corresponds with Wolfe's- WE to RCA systems.

They were doing a lot of experimenting back then. One of the experiments were with "Higher Fidelity" recordings starting in about 1932. There are just some Victor Records from 1932-34 that will blow you away with wide frequency response- IF you play them on more modern equipment. Later in the '30s they continued this with their experimental special label "Higher Fidelity" recordings.

But- the shellac was so poor that the "serious" record collectors (classical aficionados in those days) were complaining about record quality- so Victor started the Z shellac. I've heard some classical discs that were "Z" pressings AND obviously "Higher Fidelity" as well that have a sound quality that was only exceeded by the "Shaded Dog" LPs of the 50s- and even then, the '50s releases are better mainly because of vinyl.

In those days electrical recording was still very new and there weren't really any standards to speak of in recording- hell, they didn't even have any such thing as a "reference speaker" yet, so all the different companies just did what sounded best on their latest up to date equipment of the time.

Victor wasn't the only company with issues, either. Some early electric Brunswicks, Vocalions, and Gennetts as well as other brands (especially dimestore pressings) are just painful to listen to. I have Brunswicks where you can actually hear when the engineer flips the switch to start recording- and some of those have a low bass hum through the whole recording that's super annoying but is only audible on more modern equipment.

Edisons? I may be alone in this but I actually prefer late acoustic DDs over the electrics. By the time Edison went electric there seemed to be material quality control issues with pressing materials too- a 52000 series disc can look perfect and play great on a DD machine, but be just chock full of bass thumps and rumbles on modern equipment set up to play vertical records.

Columbia alone seemed to get it just right right out of the gate in 1925 with both shellac quality and recording technique. There are some exceptions to this, for example Ben Selvin's "Dust" from 1931 is a fantastic record. I have 3 copies in E+ to NM condition and all 3 have the worst surface noise- crackly hiss- I've ever heard on a Columbia of that period. Sounds OK on my 810, though. 3 copies having the same issue points to a recording problem, but obviously they couldn't hear it when they reviewed it on their equipment.

Two things I'd look at on your early electric playback machines are

1. Magnetic cartridge internal alignment- the air gap between the "exciter" attached to the needle holder and the pickup on each side needs to be as even as you can get it or the exciters can actually hit the pickup assembly on "vigorous" recordings

2. Your speaker cones may be rock solid and very brittle. I went through this on my 331 Duo and wound up Frankenstein-ing in a new modern speaker which improved things VASTLY. And yes, the later records from the Thirties sounded "harsh" and the earlier ones didn't before I made the change. Now I get better bass, sybillants, and traps without much surface noise.

I've also found that needles make a HUGE difference. Steel needles are noisier. the later 1930s Chromium needles are the way to go with the fiber "wrap" around the needle shank in horseshoe magnet pickups in my opinion.

gramophone-georg wrote:I'm wondering if it might be shellac quality more than anything else.

1931-33 was the bowels of the Depression and I noticed a marked change in shellac quality between about early 1930 and onwards- a lot of these records got "grainy" in my experience and it seems to have to do with the quality of materials they were pressing with. This just so happened to correspond with the transition from the round to diamond "VE". The other issue that started showing up was the annoying "Victor whistle" in the last bar or so of the music through the dead grooves.

Wax whistle (caused by cooling of the wax master) at the end of the side isn't endemic only to Victors. I've heard it turn up on electrical Pathés and a couple other labels. But never a Columbia, to my recollection.