The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I am new to mechanical music machines and doing the research before buying a gramophone.
What are pros and cons of a single spring vs double spring motor? I've read that there has been also a triple spring....

How does the number of springs affect on:
Length of play?
Reliability?
Collectors value?
Length of life?
Any other aspects that I should know of?

Thanks all.

ymg200 wrote:I am new to mechanical music machines and doing the research before buying a gramophone.
What are pros and cons of a single spring vs double spring motor? I've read that there has been also a triple spring....

How does the number of springs affect on:
Length of play?
Reliability?
Collectors value?
Length of life?
Any other aspects that I should know of?

Thanks all.

In my experience, most single spring motors struggle with a 12" record.

ymg200 wrote:I am new to mechanical music machines and doing the research before buying a gramophone.
What are pros and cons of a single spring vs double spring motor? I've read that there has been also a triple spring....

How does the number of springs affect on:
Length of play?
Reliability?
Collectors value?
Length of life?
Any other aspects that I should know of?

Thanks all.

1. The more springs translate into longer playing time, however winding ANY antique phonograph all the way is not a good idea.
2. Reliability of antique phonographs is dependent on the year it was produced and the manufacturer.
3. Value depends on what collectors like. If you are looking to invest, look to the stock market. It's easy to research past auction prices to find out what you can afford.
4. Antique phonographs have already existed way beyond the expectations of their manufacturer.
5. What you need to know is that the antique phonograph collecting community derive a great deal of pleasure owning and maintaining phonographs. I personally enjoy playing 78 rpm records everyday because the music is fun and the machines are mechanical marvels. Check out this link to find out much more. https://www.antiquephono.org/

ymg200 wrote:I am new to mechanical music machines and doing the research before buying a gramophone.
What are pros and cons of a single spring vs double spring motor? I've read that there has been also a triple spring....

Yes, Edison marketed a couple of Phonographs in the 1896-1911 period which were equipped with a triple-mainspring motor known as the "Triton." Columbia marketed several machines (cylinder and disc) with 4-mainspring motors, and many of the larger post-1917 Victrolas are equipped with 4-mainspring motors.

ymg200 wrote:How does the number of springs affect on:
Length of play?

Typically, the more mainsprings in a motor, the longer it will play on a single winding. Columbia marketed a very popular Graphophone from 1897-1907 (The Type B, or "Eagle) with two mainsprings, but they were so small that some machines with a single, larger mainspring could play longer on a single winding.

ymg200 wrote:Reliability?

Having multiple mainsprings means that each mainspring is sharing the work with the other mainspring(s), but the disadvantage of this is that if one mainspring breaks, the motor will not function.

ymg200 wrote:Collectors value?

Multiple-mainspring motors are usually found in upper-end machines, so the collector value may be higher, but not so much because of the mainsprings. Many earlier machines with single mainsprings are worth far more than nicely-playing multi-mainspring Victrolas of 20 years later. Don't buy a machine based on the number of mainsprings. Also, decide if you want a machine to use as a daily player, or a rare specimen. Many of us have scarce talking machines worth many thousands of dollars that don't play well - - and never did. Meanwhile, a common Victrola worth perhaps $150-$200 will play nicely and provide utility that the "shelf queens" cannot.

ymg200 wrote:Length of life?

Mainsprings can and do break. Metal fatigue affects these parts over time. Luckily, new mainsprings are readily available at reasonable prices, and the parts suppliers will even install them in your spring barrels if you wish.

ymg200 wrote:Any other aspects that I should know of?

I wouldn't recommend a prospective collector to go out and buy a rare machine. First, decide what you like: musically and visually; and set a budget for your first purchase.

For cylinder machines, start with a common model such as an Edison Standard Model D (it plays both 2-minute and 4-minute cylinder records with the proper reproducers). If you don't care about the external horn of the Standard, and prefer fox-trots to earlier popular music, get an Edison Amberola 30.

For disc machines, common models are the Victrolas VI, IX, XI, XIV, and XVI (I left out the IV because it has a smallish single mainspring and you'll spend a lot of time winding it if you enjoy playing records). These are in ascending order of original price and features. They all play 78 rpm records, which are in plentiful supply and are often given away free by collectors.

These are just my suggestions, and others will have their own perspectives. In short, start simple and buy only what you like. Don't be in a hurry, and hopefully get some exposure to some different machines before taking the plunge.

Good luck!

George P.

It’s a lot less intimidating cleaning and re-greasing a one spring motor compared to a multiple spring one. Which is the reason I’ve still haven’t given a tear down cleaning and re-greasing of my VV-111’s 4 spring motor...

If you are able to view a prospective purchase in person, and I strongly advise that as a beginner you should, take a record and a few needles with you.
Some sellers will claim that they cannot demonstrate the machine because they have no records or needles, and it is very rewarding to watch their faces as you produce both!
The record should be a worn one, as this will impose an additional drag on the motor and expose any weakness in the spring(s). Needless to say, make sure that the record plays all the way through without rewinding.

Good hunting!

Multiple spring motors are simply a way to put a longer spring in a relatively compact package. Since the spring assembly is designed to wind and unwind from one end to the other, effectively creating one long spring. For example, consider a Victor 4 spring motor which uses 17 foot springs. This adds up to 68 feet of spring which would require a barrel of too large of a diameter to be practical in the average talking machine cabinet. However, by dividing the spring into four smaller pieces, placing them in two barrels and connecting them so that they wind as one long spring, you can make a longer running motor that will fit easily into the cabinet. Also, when servicing the springs, it is much easier to handle 4 smaller springs than one very large one.

Jim

The pros & cons are well stated above. That being said, I would advise you to make your choice based on what you like and what interests you, paying no mind to how many springs it has. If it's in good shape, any number of springs will do what you want it to. In other words, don't buy something that's less appealing than some other option just because it's got more springs...

epigramophone wrote:If you are able to view a prospective purchase in person, and I strongly advise that as a beginner you should, take a record and a few needles with you.
Some sellers will claim that they cannot demonstrate the machine because they have no records or needles, and it is very rewarding to watch their faces as you produce both!
The record should be a worn one, as this will impose an additional drag on the motor and expose any weakness in the spring(s). Needless to say, make sure that the record plays all the way through without rewinding.

Good hunting!

This is a very good point. I won't buy a car without test driving it, same should be applied to a music machine. Except that I haven't heard one in person so far, so I won't be able to judge the sound. Hopefully this will change soon

phonogfp wrote:

ymg200 wrote:I am new to mechanical music machines and doing the research before buying a gramophone.
What are pros and cons of a single spring vs double spring motor? I've read that there has been also a triple spring....

Yes, Edison marketed a couple of Phonographs in the 1896-1911 period which were equipped with a triple-mainspring motor known as the "Triton." Columbia marketed several machines (cylinder and disc) with 4-mainspring motors, and many of the larger post-1917 Victrolas are equipped with 4-mainspring motors.

ymg200 wrote:How does the number of springs affect on:
Length of play?

Typically, the more mainsprings in a motor, the longer it will play on a single winding. Columbia marketed a very popular Graphophone from 1897-1907 (The Type B, or "Eagle) with two mainsprings, but they were so small that some machines with a single, larger mainspring could play longer on a single winding.

ymg200 wrote:Reliability?

Having multiple mainsprings means that each mainspring is sharing the work with the other mainspring(s), but the disadvantage of this is that if one mainspring breaks, the motor will not function.

ymg200 wrote:Collectors value?

Multiple-mainspring motors are usually found in upper-end machines, so the collector value may be higher, but not so much because of the mainsprings. Many earlier machines with single mainsprings are worth far more than nicely-playing multi-mainspring Victrolas of 20 years later. Don't buy a machine based on the number of mainsprings. Also, decide if you want a machine to use as a daily player, or a rare specimen. Many of us have scarce talking machines worth many thousands of dollars that don't play well - - and never did. Meanwhile, a common Victrola worth perhaps $150-$200 will play nicely and provide utility that the "shelf queens" cannot.

ymg200 wrote:Length of life?

Mainsprings can and do break. Metal fatigue affects these parts over time. Luckily, new mainsprings are readily available at reasonable prices, and the parts suppliers will even install them in your spring barrels if you wish.

ymg200 wrote:Any other aspects that I should know of?

I wouldn't recommend a prospective collector to go out and buy a rare machine. First, decide what you like: musically and visually; and set a budget for your first purchase.

For cylinder machines, start with a common model such as an Edison Standard Model D (it plays both 2-minute and 4-minute cylinder records with the proper reproducers). If you don't care about the external horn of the Standard, and prefer fox-trots to earlier popular music, get an Edison Amberola 30.

For disc machines, common models are the Victrolas VI, IX, XI, XIV, and XVI (I left out the IV because it has a smallish single mainspring and you'll spend a lot of time winding it if you enjoy playing records). These are in ascending order of original price and features. They all play 78 rpm records, which are in plentiful supply and are often given away free by collectors.

These are just my suggestions, and others will have their own perspectives. In short, start simple and buy only what you like. Don't be in a hurry, and hopefully get some exposure to some different machines before taking the plunge.

Good luck!

George P.

Thank you George for good points. I do know exactly what I want, although I'm not set on a particular model. I want a Victrola because they were made in NJ and I live in NJ. Also Victrolas are popular, so I shouldn't have problems with parts in case if I need any. I'd want external horn for the classic look, but from what I can see the price jumps considerably for external horn (I assume that's not only because of aesthetics, but because those were earlier models), so I'll likely have to settle for an internal horn. I'd want a tabletop model because the cabinet only distracts attention from the machine (that's my personal perception). I'd go for an earlier model, but I want it to have a good sound quality... I have to stop here because I haven't heard any machines in person so far. I'd want to see and hear few machines before I can make an educated decision.