The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I know Big Band records are not as valuable as records from the 20s, but that doesn't mean there aren't lots of great records made from the 30s and 40s. How can you resist music like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLFUoPqkGwQ

The music is a matter of personal taste, and I prefer the 20's sound, but I avoid Big Band records because they are often too loudly recorded to play well on acoustic machines.
Those who bought them new in the 30's and 40's would probably have played them on electrical equipment, a field of collecting in which I have no interest.

I don't have any preconception against records of the '40s, and I would actually rank amongst my favourites even few swing records of the '50s.

However, as a matter of fact, I seem to spontaneously tend to prefer music of the '20s or early '30s. Later swing often delivers the sensation of being somewhat artifacted, with details that are not really necessary and were introduced only as an attempt to innovate a musical style which was beginning to get old and needed fresh air; but the result of all this often plays just cheesy or terribly outdated on the long run.

Also, many passages tend to be uselessly technical or artificially weird just in order to surprise the audience, with detriment of the overall feel and enjoyability of the music. A beautiful melody leaned on an elegant rhythm is preferable, in my humble opinion, to a sequence of furious solos that lead nowhere. With exceptions, of course.

Marco Gilardetti wrote:I don't have any preconception against records of the '40s, and I would actually rank amongst my favourites even few swing records of the '50s.

However, as a matter of fact, I seem to spontaneously tend to prefer music of the '20s or early '30s. Later swing often delivers the sensation of being somewhat artifacted, with details that are not really necessary and were introduced only as an attempt to innovate a musical style which was beginning to get old and needed fresh air; but the result of all this often plays just cheesy or terribly outdated on the long run.

Also, many passages tend to be uselessly technical or artificially weird just in order to surprise the audience, with detriment of the overall feel and enjoyability of the music. A beautiful melody leaned on an elegant rhythm is preferable, in my humble opinion, to a sequence of furious solos that lead nowhere. With exceptions, of course.

My thoughts and tastes are very similar to yours Marco (no surprise there!). As you say, there are many exceptions, but much of the later swing seems a bit formulaic, contrived, brash, often soulless - to me, that is! Each to their own, and I don't mean to impose those descriptions on anyone else's preferences and enjoyment, they are only my own responses. Almost paradoxically, I find the 20s to early 30s jazz has both 'pure' and 'wild/anarchic' qualities for me, wonderful and vibrant in both respects.

I have a number of '30s-'40s (mostly the latter) big band recordings, mainly Benny Goodman, Harry James, and Tommy Dorsey. I always use a soft-tone needle on these, and their clarity and presence is remarkable. IMO, it all depends on the particular machine and the condition of the sound box, in my case VV-XI G with Exhibition. Generally speaking, I have no problem with either electrically recorded or acoustically recorded jazz, whether big band or small ensemble (such as Louis Armstrong sides from the '20s). Sonically, though, the electrics are clearly superior. (N.B.: this is not a statement about musical quality!)

I absolutely do like Big Band music, but I also would not call myself a record collector per se. I do own a couple thousand 78s, but mostly because I am not set on any specific type of music. Only listening to one particular Band, singer, or music style gets boring to me very quickly. Therefore I transfer all my 78s to mp3 and listen to the mix while driving. My wife and kids think it's terrible to mix music from the Peerless Quartet, then Glenn Miller, Caruso, Louis Armstrong, Ada Jones/Billy Murray, Ink Spots, Mamie Smith, ODJB, etc. But that's exactly what I like, that amazing variety of great music. Before I got into 78s I would listen to similarly strange mixes of Rock, Pop, Heavy Metal, Rock'n'Roll, Beat, Samba, etc.

So yes, that Tommy Dorsey hit is awesome, but when I transfer multi-record albums of him to mp3 it soon starts getting too much of the same thing and I welcome an early Ragtime, Blues, Jazz, Vocal, etc to break up the monotony.

Thanks
Andreas

I don't hate it at all, but I do sometimes weary of picking through them when I stumble on a box of 78's hoping for rarer fare. I mean, how many copies of Tommy Dorsey's Marie or Harry James' Flight of the Bumblebee do I need to look at. There's just such a volume of big band records out there. I will buy them selectively.

marcapra wrote:I know Big Band records are not as valuable as records from the 20s, but that doesn't mean there aren't lots of great records made from the 30s and 40s. How can you resist music like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLFUoPqkGwQ

I don't hate it at all- I have tons of it. I tend to the earlier "transitional" stuff in most cases (Glenn Miller's Royal Blue Columbias, Brunswicks, and Deccas, Goodman's Royal Blue and black Viva Tonal Columbias and Scroll Victors, Dorsey Brothers OKeh, Brunswick, and Decca, Bunny Berigan Vocalion/ Brunswick, "Art" Shaw Brunswick, etc., Teagarden blue Columbias, Jan Garber Columbia Viva, Ted Weems Victors, etc., not to mention Tommy Dorsey's trumpet records! ) but I like and regularly listen to later stuff, too. Lots of GREAT music was recorded from 1935-50. Try late Charlie Barnet like "Skyliner", Tommy Dorsey's "At The Fat Man's" and Artie Shaw's postwar RCA/Victor sides where he was starting to experiment with Bop (late Gramercy 5).

It's a real rabbit hole, trust me.

When records like Goodman's "Sing Sing Sing", Glenn Miller's "In The Mood", and the perpetually annoying Andrews Sisters' "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" often fetch far north of $100, you can hardly say there's no interest. The other day, a "common" Teddy Wilson/ Billie Holiday Brunswick fetched an eye popping $331.00 on eBay. I was going to try to pick it up as a backup copy as "I Wished On The Moon" is a great record, but not at anywhere near that price.

All of the big Swing/ Big Band Era greats had their roots in the Jazz Age- the Dorseys started with the Scranton Sirens, then moved to Goldkette, Whiteman, Selvin, etc. Goodman was everywhere in the 20s- sometimes on alto sax too- Red Nichols, Lee Morse, Irving Mills, Ben Selvin, etc. Artie Shaw got his real start with Austin Wylie's great Golden Pheasant Restaurant band out of Cleveland, Ohio in 1925 at 15!- Even Leo Reisman got in on the act by hiring the great Bubber Miley away from Duke for awhile. Louis Armstrong spent time with Fletcher Henderson, and Jimmie Lunceford studied under Paul Whiteman's dad Wilberforce and started off on sax in a band led by George Morrison (that also featured a kid named Andy Kirk!) of which I don't believe any recordings exist. Cab Calloway's band was the reorganized Missourians.

The Swing era, ironically, suffered the same fate really as the Jazz Age- a traumatic worldwide event made the public mood more sentimental than "hot"- for the Jazz Age it was the Depression, and for the Swing Era it was Pearl Harbor and WW2. The depression gave rise to a mini crooner era- Rudy Vallee hit his apex, as did Bing Crosby, (who changed from a quite good jazz idiom and scat singer into the "Old Groaner"), Harry Richman, Will Osborne, Russ Columbo, Buddy Rogers, Chick Bullock, etc.

For WW2 it was the likes of Jack Leonard, Perry Como, Jo Stafford, Helen Forest, etc., and of course Sinatra, who to my mind is a standalone in that he never dumped the Swing idiom- the sentimental ballads were more a side gig. Even Armstrong drifted more and more from playing that horn into singing.

If you need to "ease" yourself into a Swing foray, try the "small band" records- Wingy Mannone, Louis Prima (Brunswicks), Teddy Wilson, and the great "sub bands" like Goodman's trio, T. Dorsey's Clambake 7, Shaw's Gramercy 5, etc.

Swing was nothing new in 1935. It had already been around for well over 10 years. Fletcher Henderson was, of course, the recording pioneer. Don Redman took it to the next level with the great McKinney's Cotton Pickers band. Not a lot of people are aware of this, but Jean Goldkette, on top of being a classically trained pianist who preferred jazz, was mainly a band agent... he had many bands out in "the field". His Victor recording band was really fronted by Frank Trumbauer and Tram's sidekick Bix was in it. But- McKinney's was another Goldkette band! Collectors turn their noses up at Goldkette records recorded after Tram and Bix and Rollini and the Dorseys all went to Whiteman, but Goldkette brought in Redman and some of the McKinney's guys and did things like "Birmingham Bertha" and "My Blackbirds Are Bluebirds Now" that are tight, loud killers. Listen to "Clementine" by this band, recorded just before all the "good" guys left. It's PURE swing, and people ages ago who were there always commented that THAT record captured what the Goldkette band actually sounded like in person, so "Swing" was around long before people think it was.

There are some great red Columbia records in the 1940s. But for every song that sound like this for example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yitEHSNId_M


...There are about 5 other red Columbia’s and Black Deccas that sound like the one Charlie Barnet is parodying here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-tN_9zDVMc

AmberolaAndy wrote:There are some great red Columbia records in the 1940s. But for every song that sound like this for example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yitEHSNId_M


...There are about 5 other red Columbia’s and Black Deccas that sound like the one Charlie Barnet is parodying here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-tN_9zDVMc

LMAO- "The Wrong Idea" is a fantastic record. Legend was that Sammy Kaye was so peeved off by this that he tried to get Victor to shelve it, then he threatened to sue Charlie Barnet. Barnet got the feeling just right, then bent the notes enough to be hilarious. Spike Jones? Never heard of him.