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I have come across a number of Victor records which have been recorded at various speeds. In the period up to WW1, one generally will see a range of 75 to 82 RPM. However three Red Seal records pop out in my mind which I pulled out to play on my wind up machine to set the speed until they sounded right. I am sure there are many more discs like these out there.

The three extreme low speed records I will mention here (below 75 RPM) are Victor 74213 - Kermesse Scene from the opera Faust, Victor 88321 the Paderewski Minuet in G and lastly Victor 88322 Valse Brilliante by Chopin.

The Victor 74213 from around 1910 plays best at about 72 RPM and the recorder may have reduced the speed to fit the 12" disc. The Paderewski discs were highlighted by Fred Gaisberg who, in his memoir, I recall suggesting he was present at Paderewski's first recording session made in his Chateau in Switzerland. These 1911 session discs appear best played back at 68-69 RPM which is way too low. Perhaps nervousness ensued before the great Paderewski? I don't know but these two discs of his play comically fast at 78 RPM.

Can you confirm this and any other oddball speed discs to look out for?

Governor Flyball wrote:I have come across a number of Victor records which have been recorded at various speeds. In the period up to WW1, one generally will see a range of 75 to 82 RPM. However three Red Seal records pop out in my mind which I pulled out to play on my wind up machine to set the speed until they sounded right. I am sure there are many more discs like these out there.

The three extreme low speed records I will mention here (below 75 RPM) are Victor 74213 - Kermesse Scene from the opera Faust, Victor 88321 the Paderewski Minuet in G and lastly Victor 88322 Valse Brilliante by Chopin.

The Victor 74213 from around 1910 plays best at about 72 RPM and the recorder may have reduced the speed to fit the 12" disc. The Paderewski discs were highlighted by Fred Gaisberg who, in his memoir, I recall suggesting he was present at Paderewski's first recording session made in his Chateau in Switzerland. These 1911 session discs appear best played back at 68-69 RPM which is way too low. Perhaps nervousness ensued before the great Paderewski? I don't know but these two discs of his play comically fast at 78 RPM.

Can you confirm this and any other oddball speed discs to look out for?

I've been sifting through a lot of acoustic dupes lately, and speeds are all over the map. The one speed at which no 78 of the era seems to have been recorded was 78 RPM. (Actually, that's not true. The label of one Caruso record, I forget which, claims the record turns at 80 RPM. Naturally, that one actually goes at 78. )

I can offer that Marie Novello's Edison Bell Velvet Face recording of Mendelssohn's first piano concerto (her sole multi-disk set of a "complete" work) clocks in at around 84 RPM. Victor, as we all know, liked to set the RPMs a little low; Columbia seems to have liked them a little high. I don't know what nominal speed Vocalion or Brunswick claimed, but Pathé center starts, according to their contemporary sleeves, run "between 90 and 100 RPM." Isn't *that* helpful? Some of the very early Caruso records from G&T sessions supposedly run down around 62 or so; I imagine other records from that source of that vintage would do likewise. I think the only records of the pre-electric era that are truly reliable are Edison diamond discs at 80 RPM. (If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will quickly correct me. )

The 1912 Lucia Sextette, on the Patent Label disc, is marked to play at 72 RPM and it sounds a lot better there. In 1921 the Philadelphia Symphony recorded the Ride of the Valkyries with Stokowski, and it plays a lot better at around 73-75 RPM.

There are others. I use the tachometer on my 1914 Victrola to just get the speed in the ballpark. 78 is accurate but I use the gauge to adjust it. (Having a little tach on my gramophone makes it all that much easier.)

A Columbia Record sounds better at 80, and so the sleeves direct to play them. Victor Records were said to be 78s but often ran slower. Playing them faster was thought to brighten the pitch--just makes it sound like an old cartoon.

drh wrote: Some of the very early Caruso records from G&T sessions supposedly run down around 62 or so;

The slowest of those Caruso G & T's is about 67 rpm.

I've never had a 78 that played as slow as 62 rpm. Maybe some Berliners do play around that speed ?

Wolfe wrote:

drh wrote: Some of the very early Caruso records from G&T sessions supposedly run down around 62 or so;

The slowest of those Caruso G & T's is about 67 rpm.

I've never had a 78 that played as slow as 62 rpm. Maybe some Berliners do play around that speed ?

IIRC, the short lived "Deluxe Special" 14 inch records from Victor played at 60 rpm and had a label on the back indicating this.

52089 wrote:

Wolfe wrote:

drh wrote: Some of the very early Caruso records from G&T sessions supposedly run down around 62 or so;

The slowest of those Caruso G & T's is about 67 rpm.

I've never had a 78 that played as slow as 62 rpm. Maybe some Berliners do play around that speed ?

IIRC, the short lived "Deluxe Special" 14 inch records from Victor played at 60 rpm and had a label on the back indicating this.

Some Berliners - especially spoken word - are indeed very slow. Both Victor and Columbia 14 inch discs carried instructions to play them at 60 rpm.

George P.

Talking about 60RPM Victors, it appears the speed was not relegated only to the 1903 14" deluxe discs. Here is a 1905 12 inch recording on Victor 31350 matrix C2035 Take 6 which plays back at exactly 60RPM!

Again I think the recording engineer took the liberty of slowing down the turntable to fit the entire (truncated) Zampa Overture.
I am sure there are other examples of trying to fit the music to the disc by slowing the turntable from the same period.

I would make an mp3 but I cannot slow down my playback turntable. (I bought an old 1920's GE induction motor turntable to allow me a wider range of speeds on playback of earlier acoustic discs). Perhaps an mp3 at 78RPM would demonstrate this better!

This discussion reminds me of the disservice done by the adoption of the term "78s." (These comments obviously do not pertain to Edison Disc equipment or records.) Prior to the 1940s, few referred to mainstream disc records as "78s." Multi-speed turntables insured the misnomer, and many collectors continue to slavishly adjust their turntables to 78 rpm using apps, strobes, and counting revolutions. All this despite the presence of the prominent speed control placed within easy reach on virtually all acoustic talking machines.

The fact is, during the acoustic period, recording speed was variable, and adjusting turntable speed was a part of playing records. People had pianos in their homes, many read music, and their musical "ear" suggested to them what a tenor, bass, banjo, or violin should sound like.

I'll bet many of us have markings on some of our records, put there by original owners, which specified the best speed setting for that particular record. During the acoustic period, playing records properly required a bit of effort.

George P.

I keep a copy of "Caruso on Records," by John R Bolig close at hand. Bolig lists the speeds for all Caruso records (based on the work of the wonderfully named Aida Favia-Artsay). With a tachometer for both my wind-ups and my adjustable speed Audio Technica (especially for the rarer or more fragile records) it's easy to pitch Caruso at least, at proper speeds.

Governor Flyball wrote:
I would make an mp3 but I cannot slow down my playback turntable.

Audio recording freeware like Audacity lets you adjust the speed wherever you want.