The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Should there be a lot of slop between the horn and elbow? In trying to get this thing to sound better, I tried to true the horn a bit (it looked like it had been a doggie chew toy, complete with a couple extra holes (and yeah, that bolt). This thing is jank city. I jbweld’d the holes and crevices, and put some grease around the opening where it meets the elbow. The result is a noticeably tighter fit and richer sound for sure. Is there anything else I could do to seal it up better. I was thinking of maybe some plumber’s caulk or foam tape. This is all interim stuff until I find a new horn! The seller reimbursed me (somewhat) after I pointed out the numerous problems with what he considered a spectacular horn.

The seller included this abysmal Victor reproducer, with its very strange needle angle. It looks like a tick about to pop. How does the angle differ so much from that of an HMV. Would the swelling cause this? The seller also claimed the Victor reproducer was an “upgrade” to the machine. “Downgrade” is a much better term here.

Anyway, this “beautifully restored machine” is my work in progress.

That Victrola reproducer can be re-built with a new body. It's not correct for your machine but is worth keeping for parts.

In the photo you provided, the needle angle seems about right for an Orthophonic sound box. I agree that it looks like it might be restore-able, though I see some damage to the diaphragm and can't tell from the photo if it's punctured.

To make it more authentic, you'll probably want to hunt down the correct HMV sound box for this model, and maybe have the Orthophonic sound box restored or swap/sell it.

OrthoFan

Oh I use a 5b, the Victor is just too scary for me.

Dearest Steve, the Victor Orthophonic soundbox is highly regarded, and the intention of the previous owner was surely to put it in as an "upgrade". Too bad that, on one side, this unit is much spoiled, and that on the other just putting an orthophonic soundbox on a primitive machine won't necessarily mean that the gramophone will sound any better. Actually, chances are that due to a terrible acoustic impedance mismatch the gramophone will sound worse.

As a side note, the same applies to your 5A or 5B soundbox: I would be suprised if the gramophone would actually sound better than with the soundbox around which it was designed. I no longer remember if you tried this machine with the Victrola N°4 soundbox, which in my opinion is your best option if your focus is still to use it with electrically recorded records: the N°4 was designed with electrically recorded records in mind, and at the same time, as it was designed as a direct replacement for Exhibition an N°2 soundboxes, it should still match quite well the impedance of the horn.

Back to the Victor Orthophonic soundbox, it would be valuable and sought after if well kept, but this unit looks too far gone in my opinon: the back zamak flange has swollen and cracked to such degree that in turn it has also cracked the front flange at its edge. I agree that also the aluminium diaphragm seems damaged: it shows irregular patterns. It's a pity, as two fellows here have - at the same time - told me that I should try my newly acquired HMV 163 with a Victor Orthophonic, swearing marvels, so I would have been very pleased to buy it from you, had it been in good shape.

The HMV Model 31a was originally fitted with the No.5a soundbox. See Page 67 Fig.2.57 of "His Master's Gramophone" if you have access to a copy.

In the UK the Victor Orthophonic soundbox became the HMV No.5, but it was quickly replaced by the No.5a and it's successor the No.5b. Most surviving No.5's have succumbed to pot metal fatigue.
I have yet to see a perfect HMV No.5, but brass Victor Orthophonics can be found at a price.

That same I was ready to add... The 31a was designed with the thick tonearm and the 5a/5b soundboxes. There shouldn't be any mismatch in impedances; the 102/104/130/145/150 gramophones had sound systems that I'd say were shorter than the 31a, with short tonearm (as 102/104) but internal conduit and this long wide horn. The 5a/5b sound well with the shortest 102 system, as far as with the longest and largest ones (158/202)...
The European model 32 was designed pretty similar, but using the narrow swan neck tonearm, the 4 soundbox and ---i imagine--- a narrower conduit, leading to the same horn. BTW, the narrow swan neck tonearm, even in the smallest version (101 and tabletop models 103/109/126/127) was noticeably longer than the short fat swan neck tonearm of the 102/104. I suppose the larger machines with narrow tonearm (consoles and uprights of that era) used longer narrow tonearms. At least the one in the 461/511 seemed longer.
The fast tonearm was short in the 102/104, but maybe the tabletops 130/150 plus the small 145 upright and the consoles and uprights (from 157 up the scale} used longer sizes (an intermediate length exists for these...??). The 193/4 and the 202/3 used the largest size, a pretty long tonearm with very good tracking alignment.
The end: the 5/5a/5b soundboxes are used in all these systems, from the short 102 to the largest 202. The same can be said of the no4 soundbox, used in all machines of the narrow tonearm generation, the shortest being the 101 and the longest probably the 211 or the saxophone horn models.
Aside of that, I'm not sure if the system of the 101 is so short. Yesterday I was at an afternoon private listening party with myself, using the 101 and playing piano records (Arthur Schnabel jr. recording of the Mendelssongs without words). And the sound was incredibly good. It was in my kitchen/office, at the after meal, just the dishes and ancillaries removed, and the machine and records on the tablecloth. While taking a coffee... This little marvel of 101 filled the room with warm sound and beautiful music...! Terrible! The open lid acting as reflector actually elongates the actual sound system length further than its material 3-feet conduit.
The 102, having a slightly shorter sound conduit, also sounds well (actually better). But this is a different design, starting at a wider bore, and ending also at a wider horn mouth. The lid reflector also plays its part. The power of the 5-type soundbox as well as its frequency content is also greater than the mica type. Interesting...
--
That said, with well restored examples of both systems (the no4 based and the no5/a/b) the sound is very good. The treble and bass is better in the later system, mostly noticeably in the treble register. But many collectors have expressed the impossibility of choosing one of them alone, both systems having their own charms. The narrow one has a mellowness which the wider one (even regarded as an upgrade, as it was intended) cannot match...
-- latest edit, i swear... ---
Each time I decide to have a session with the 101, I'm mostly amazed at the good sound of this little machine (if the room size is not very wide). And I always put myself on the verge of deciding which machine alone I would keep, in case a decision had to be taken (kind of desert island affair...) And I'm always tempted to say I would choose the 101... it's cheap, pretty common and easy to buy even 88 years after its formal demise, there are plenty of spare parts, it's easy to maintain, and the sound is GREAT. For me, the 101 is the best overall achievement of The Gramophone Co. How many they made? Provided that today or is actually very easy to find one, in every corner of the world...

Question: were N°4 soundboxes still being produced when the 31a model was deployed?

Marco, a good question...! Date of end of production of the no4, was it 1931... or later....?
The earliest catalogue I have after 1930 is the 1933 Spanish one, and they advert the 102, the smaller 97 and the two tabletops 104 and 130. No no4s here.
Still, the 101 must have been so popular that I can imagine people owning one... were not tempted to acquire a 102 later... The 101 sounded very well and lasted for a lifetime. Were they aware the third and fourth generation ahead will be still playing them?

Marco Gilardetti wrote:Question: were N°4 soundboxes still being produced when the 31a model was deployed?

"His Master's Gramophone" dates the HMV Model 31a "from 1935", by which date the No.4 soundbox was long obsolete.