The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hello to everyone.

Recently I bough this lovely HMV Mod. 461 (nice start for the 2020).

It is the mahogany version and a late one I suppose considering the dull gild finish of the interior fittings (oxidised bronze for the external ones).

Apparently it has been retailed by Crane & Sons L.t.d. (I do not know if in London, Liverpool or "other Branches").

Does anyone knows precisely what kind of finish they used back then for the cabinet?

The case on the exterior presents "alligatored finish" probably because the gramophone has been exposed to drastic changes of humidity/temperature.

I would like to try the "reamalgamation approach" in order to keep and renew the old finish but I have to know first the type of finish used (shellac, lacquer, a mixture of lacquer and schellac or varnish).

The finish on those, as with all HMVs of that area is toned satin nitrocellulose lacquer over varnish. First try cleaning it with Goop or similar products. Reamalgamation theoretically works, as nitrocellulose never cures but only dries. Practically it is quite tricky...

I agree with Teak but there are a few examples out there with sprayed French Polish (shellac based). I have one!

How do I know this? Well, the cellulose does not dissolve with methylated spirit whereas shellac does

I would not destroy the finish by dissolving it and attempting to repolish the surface. All you need to do is cut the surface with an ultra fine cutting paste. Be careful though as T-cut will ruin shellac. I use Brasso. It's really hard and long winded work but the results can be amazing.

Thank you both for the reply. I just uploaded a picture of a portion of the exterior of the case for clarification (if you zoom in - high resolution picture - you can notice that there is also a sort of crinkled effect other than the alligatored one).

Crane & Sons were based in Liverpool (in Hanover Street, with another branch in Scotland Street); the London branch was in Oxford Street, and there were eleven other branches around the UK in 1927.

From your photograph, I think the finish on this one could be shellac based. In my experience, cellulose crazes (like the glaze on porcelain) and tends then to stat flaking off, whereas this has 'alligatored'; the sections have shrunk away from each other, with gaps between, just like alligator skin. So I would try some methylated spirit in an inconspicuous place, to see if it has any effect.

Very interesting Oedipus! Thank you for these informations. I do not think it is shellack because rubbing a cotton stick with some alcohol - this over an inconspicuous area - seems not affect the finish.

I started the restoration process few days ago. Some pictures attached to show you the gluing of some lifted veneer of the lid, comparison between the restored finish and the original untouched finish of the motor board (it has been protected by the lid), the original unrestored finish, the before/after cleaning of the finish with white spirit.

Specifically the finish has been restore as following:

• 1. 000 steel wool
  2. Clean the surface with white spirit
  3. 0000 steel wool
  4. Clean again the surface with white spirit
  5. "Light reamalgamation" (I choose not to completely reamalgamate the original finish by pouring the specific solvent directly on it but adding a coat/layer of a similar transparent lacquer as aerosol spray - the solvent needed to keep liquid the lacquer in the spray is sufficient to bond the new finish with the old one while affecting only the very top of the latter

Whatever you are doing is working wonders on that old finish.

Thank you -- most interesting. I had never come across instances of post-1924 mahogany HMV cabinets being finished in anything other than cellulose until I read Steve's post, and nor have I seen cellulose alligatoring in quite the way it has on yours! Even inside the lid, which is most unusual -- that part normally survives in pristine condition.

Anyway, your treatment looks remarkably effective, though I would be reluctant to try it myself without knowing the constituents of the original finish or the aerosol lacquer -- and I am no chemist! One of the problems with cellulose in old age is the ease with which it can be scratched. I imagine that your treatment would cure this problem, too.

Finally I managed to complete the restoration of my HMV Mod. 461.

After I tested some other solvents I started to think that the gramophone was not finished with a mixture of varnish and cellulose but shellac (still not quite sure if pure shellac or some sort of mixture has been used due to the fact that even alcohol had difficulties in reacting with the finish).

In any case using aerosol spray varnish worked good and it is completely reversible if one want get the old finish back (new layer can be cleaned without the risk of damaging the old finish just using cotton pads and acetone). I am not perfectly satisfied do to difficulties in working with aerosol spay can but nevertheless it looks pretty good.

I will add more pictures if you would like and upload some videos on my YouTube channel. I have to say that it is a hulking machine for a tabletop once one opens the lid.

P.S: the handle is from an HMV Mod. 130 (its original one has the pommel that needs to be stripped and repainted in glossy black lacquer).