The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hello,

I recently purchased a Gramophone and Typewriter gramophone (not the one in my previous threads, to those who read those). Aesthetically it's fine, and I was happy with the price. The machine has been fitted with a No.18 single spring motor in replacement for the original motor. When I received the machine I tried playing some records. Some were ok, mostly the ones in pristine condition, but some others, and most of my 12 inch records from various periods didn't play: the needle dragged on the record until it came to a stop. Is this a common problem with older motors? I don't know when the No.18 motor was around, but it seems weird that it wouldn't have the strength to play even a 10 inch record on full wide, regardless of what condition the record was in. The seller says this is a normal phenomenon for older machines, but I've still put some serious money into buying this machine and want to know if the seller is telling the truth and that I'm simply dreaming if I'm thinking a 1906 gramophone will play a 12 inch record in average condition.

What are your thoughts? Cheers.

Has the motor been serviced? Lack of lubrication or a tired spring could be an issue. I had a single-spring machine that struggled to make it through a record until I cleaned and lubricated the motor. While that helped, I wasn't fully satisfied. I eventually replaced the spring, and the problem was solved. It will play 10 or 12 inch records fine now. The old spring was tired and had lost much of its strength or "springyness."

Of course some records with bad surfaces like Cameos can also cause a machine to drag to a stop.

See photo below showing old tired spring on left, and new spring on right.

Motor has been fully serviced, and I double checked and it's freshly greased and moves freely. There are a few creaks and other noises when it runs, but nothing too bad: my 1920s gramophone motor makes the same noises so I reckon that's normal.

Just a thought about mainsprings- I haven't any proof of this, but have always maintained that if a machine isn't going to be used regularly, then the mainspring should be allowed to wind down completely. My theory is that if it is left unwound, it retains its' strength and extends its' life.

I always let my machines wind out, just as a matter of good practice.

What type and what era records are you having an issue with? Post some pictures of the records and labels that you are having trouble with, which may help identify the problem...

Pre-1930 acoustic shellac records were made to play with steel needles. After that timeframe most were made to play on electric machines with lighter reproducers. The compounds used during the '30s and later tend to drag if played with steel needles, mainly because they are softer. Also, early acoustic records that have been overplayed with evident wear will do the same. From my experience, shellac records tend to play better with thicker "loud tone" steel needles as opposed to "soft tone" thin needles, but that's just my opinion. Also, remember that steel needles are good for only one play and then should be discarded...

As previously stated, the usual culprit is either a worn spring or an incorrect one - you mentioned that the motor was changed out to a single spring motor, which might also be the problem if it originally had a double spring motor. The substitute motor may not be powerful enough...

Funnily enough it's the electrically recorded ones that play fine, but I think I may have found out what the issue is. The discs in mint condition, regardless of age, seem to play fine. But the worn ones drag and cause the machine to stop. As an example, I played 2 12 inch records from 1910. The worn one dragged to a stop, while the mint condition one played right through. I guess the spring inside the motor is just about strong enough to play a record in mint condition, whereas worn ones have too much friction. That's what I'm thinking, in which case it's simply a case of a weak motor.

But still, I appreciate you guy's thoughts, and if there are any other things that I've missed I'd love to know and see if that's what the problem is.

As to the records. Most of the ones which drag are from the pre-WW1 era, with scarce labels such as Britannia, Rondophone, Albion etc...

Here is my "solution" for worn records (which many people on this forum consider sacrilegious): spray several small bursts of WD-40 on the grooves and use a clean paper towel or clean cloth to wipe it around in a circular motion... Then wipe off as much as you can and re-play the record with a steel needle. It won't hurt the record and I have found that it improves the record enough to be able to enjoy it. It cleans the gunk out of the grooves and lubricates it enough to be played again. Try it on one of your worn records and see if that improves it... you don't have anything to lose. If you do try it, report your findings... This reply might start a bunch of naysayers claiming that it will damage your record... it won't, I have been doing this for at least 40 years with no negative effects...

If the 78's being played are UK made ones then the date isn't so critical as here in the UK harder mixtures of shellac were used much later as the use of heavy acoustic soundboxes and steel needles were commonly used even post WWII. However the densely recorded records of that later period (i'd say from the late 1940's onwards) do wear quite quickly when played acoustically and you'd need a strong motor to pull a steel needle through those very wobbly grooves.