The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

So I have read the archives here as well as a bunch of internet info about making cylinder recordings using an Edison cylinder player (Home D in this case). I have a couple of questions that I can't seem to find the answers to...

1. Does one use a different recorder head to cut a 2 minute and 4 minute cylinder, or is the cutter the same and just the machine's gearing that's different?

2. There seem to be a an assortment for sale on ebay missing the cutter. Are replacement cutter/stylus pieces available?

3. How much should I expect to pay for one in good condition?

4. For recording a 40 pc. concert band, what type of funnel/horn should I use? (If anyone has experience recording a large group, I'd love to chat with you!)

5. Are the cylinder blanks from Paul Morris a suitable option for this type of recording?

Thanks!
Browncow

The cutter on a 4 min recorder is half as wide as that on a 2 min recorder- same as the sapphires on 2/4 reproducers.
2 minute cutters "were" available from Expert stylus, but I dont think the mounts were. Expert used to have them listed on their website, but it disappeared & I haven't seen the cutters available from any other source though.
Paul Morris blanks are excellent. I've never tried Shawn Borri blanks, but it appears he will no longer be making them unless a bunch of people donate a bunch of money to him
For 4 minute recordings, you'd have to find original (black) 4 min blanks as nobody makes them, and 2 min blanks are too soft to handle the pressure from a 4 min stylus & they'd wear out very quickly.

Good questions Browncow.

1) The cutting stylus is smaller on a 4-min recorder. There's twice the music on a four minute cylinder in the same amount of space so the 4-min stylus, either recorder or reproducer, is smaller.

2) To the best of my knowledge nobody has reproduced a cutting stylus for a recorder. I'd love to hear that I'm incorrect with this question.

3) I'd expect to pay between $60 to $100 for a recorder in good operating condition.

4) I've seen a photo of a recording session with a large band. The recording horn was huge and the performers were bunched together and on steps so everyone could point their horns towards the recording horn.

5) Paul Morris has a good reputation in the hobby and that's where I'd go to buy blanks or reproduction concert cylinders.

My cylinder recording experience is very limited but I would suggest that your efforts be directed towards two minute recordings. I think success is easier and a two minute recorder is much easier to find. I would also suggest starting with an individual band instrument and working up to your forty piece group. Of course you'll want to announce your cylinder. Something like... "Stars and Stripes Forever, performed by the Calapooya Middle School Band on Browncow records!". Good luck with your project and let us know your results. Happy collecting, Jerry Blais

Here is the section on band recordings from How to Make Records At Home With an Edison Phonograph. It's an ancient reprint that I've had since I was a kid. I suspect it dates from 1905-06 because they mention that the shaving device is being left off all the machines expect the Triumph. They also aren't too encouraging about making band records: " It requires much skill to make good band records" The number or players they suggest is rather small: one player per part but then that is the size of the Edison Concert Band as one hears it on the recordings.

Jim

Gentlemen-
Thanks for your help! LSG- The scan of the reprint is exactly what I was hoping to find.

Now I just need a recorder, the blanks, and a 48" horn with an 18" bell!

Actually, I doubt that I will buy a 48" horn for this project, but does anyone have an opinion on how a large paper mache bell would work? I think that I could manage to build one of those. Or what about fiberglass? Any ideas?

Thanks,
browncow

When I got my first recorder, I didn't have a 14" witches hat horn....so I made one.
Actually, I made 2. One was a simple cardboard horn, and the other, I "fattened up" by using plaster of paris.
To be honest, I think both home made horns do a better job than the 14" Edison horn I ended up buying to record with.
When using the larger metal horns, I now wrap a towel around the horn to cut down on the vibrations through the metal. It seems to produce much clearer recordings.
I think a large paper mache horn would work beautifully!
I've never tried fibreglass, but I cant see why it wouldn't do a great job as well.

The little booklet suggests making a recording horn out of 1/32 cardboard: something like bristol board 6-7 inches in diameter and from 26 to 36 inches in length. I've never made cylinders but I have fiddled with an Ediphone and we made a recording horn like this which did improve the results. But I've always thought that if I were going to get into it again I might try to get a few traffic cones. They come in all sizes and tapers and the plastic would be non resonant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_cone
All you would have to do is cut the bottom off and add a little extra to fit the recorder.
JRT

I had used Only Paul Morris blanks from 1995-2000, about 300 blanks I have used of his, My favorite ones, were the first light cream blanks I obtained (back then it was Miller and Morris), the first year, and the dark brown blanks he made in the late 90s. I am sure they are the same formula, as the cylinders start out white, or cream and can be almost black, if you make a big batch, and use it over a month of time, heating and reheating.) I have some P.M. blanks that are a year old, and they are very thin, and I had to ream them out to fit my Triumph mandrel, they would not fit on the right end. Some P.Ms I had purchased in 1999, are moldy! and I started making my own blanks in 2000, and used a formula similar to P.M, basically saponafied stearic acid, with aluminum and paraffin, These cylinders were pretty, good, but not anywhere near the ones I make now. Parrafin is not a good tempering agent, is has too much oil, and can make a white haze appear on the blanks, if not cooked properly, as well as if you use double instead of triple pressed stearic, When new, double pressed, blanks, and Parraffin, give exellent results, but are very unstable, and develop fog, if there is any moisture around. Ediphone blanks are made of double pressed aluminum and sodium stearate, Stearine pitch, and paraffin, and we know, that when they are freshly shaved, they sound the best of any blanks, however, we all know that Ediphone wax gets moldy very easily. I simply use Jonas Aylsworths formula for brown wax, that is the most stable cylinder recording wax there is, I use real ceresine for he tempering agent, and palm stearic, that does not contain Olaic acid, the Olaic is what leeches out of cylinders and what the mold eats. I make small 3lb batches, that only take a few hours, to make, and so I can controle the batches quality, I make blanks that are 4 and a half inches, long, and 2.90" in diamiter. This month I have made 3 improvements to my blanks, I cut production time, in half, made the record amourphorus, and have nice flat large end.

I believe Mapelson (sp) was able to make his amateur Opera recordings that included a huge orchestra, from some distance away, I think the fly of the theatre, he probably used a very big horn.

There's no reason you have to record at 160 rpm, you could go back to 120 rpm for a bit more recording time with 2 minute gearing, if you wanted.