The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I could not resist buying this machine. I did not pay much, and the horn looked so tempting, that I decided to get it for €90. I only received two photos from the seller, and knew that the winding key was missing before I paid it up front. Even if it turns out to be a frankenphone, I became so curious about the machine, that the joy of being able to investigate the machine covers the cost, in particular since I also got the horn, that to me on the first photos appeared very genuine.

When I picked up the machine last evening I quickly understood that the horn is made of brass, and is very heavy. The rest of the machine is also very heavy, not because of the motor, but because of the metal ornaments. The machine had been in the sellers family the last 20 years or so, before that it was bought on an auction market in Belgium. After scrutinizing the machine more, one can rule out crapophone, as I see it. The horn is too well built.

When I first looked at the tonearm it looked like it does not belong to the machine, but after more scrutiny, I am now not sure. The connecting parts between the horn and the tonearm fits perfectly inside the elbow, and also the machine has a manual brake and a speed controller with the same metal coloring as the tonearm, while the horn and the bracket are golden. Please state your opinions if you think otherwise, this is the only way to learn.

The cabinet is what puzzles me most. Not that the top and bottom panel is broken in half, even if they are exactly the same size, meaning they broken apart so that the four panels now are exactly the same size, which I find rather strange. What is stranger though, is that there are no signs of screw holes to hold the cabinet together. As we can see the cabinet was hold together by nails only. This fact makes me wonder if the cabinet is of a newer date, and made unprofessionally?

The motor, a very small one spring motor, nothing to brag about at all, but of what manufacture? Somehow it reminds me of a Swizz motor, but I can of course be wrong. There is a small mark on the top of the motor, I have never seen it before, but I have no idea if it is a trade mark or not.

I upload quite a lot of photos, it is the only way to check out what kind of machine this really is.

Comments and feedbacks are appreciated and very welcome, as always, and I will absolutely not be offended if this turns out to be a frankenphone. The sheer joy of checking out a different machine like this is, at least to me, a welcome detour from discussing the brands we know well...and I still have the horn;)

It's very mysterious... Seems a crapo, but as you say, except the bad quality of the wooden case, and the small motor, the rest send to be well done. The tonearm looks like an inverted one from any portable, but it's assembled so the tracking could be good, once you install the soundbox at the correct angle (oooouuuuch that needle against the grooves!). The horn support, being of cast brass is strange. But looks well done. The horn seems also very solid, and the elbow is an original one. The metal embellishments at the sides of the case could be also original.
Seems to me a reassembled machine from parts made by a careful man, with resources to make these parts (the cast brass horn support). A detailed examination of the metal embellishments will give you the key, if they are originally old or modern... The legs, I don't know. Seem what the Indians are installing in modern crapos, but who knows! Russian gramophones used to have these elements. I've seen these type of horns in other gramophones, but painted in colour.

nostalgia wrote:When I first looked at the tonearm it looked like it does not belong to the machine, but after more scrutiny, I am now not sure. The connecting parts between the horn and the tonearm fits perfectly inside the elbow, and also the machine has a manual brake and a speed controller with the same metal coloring as the tonearm, while the horn and the bracket are golden. Please state your opinions if you think otherwise, this is the only way to learn.

The tonearm looks to me like coming from an orthophonic-wannabe portable, and mounted reversed uspide-down.

With the exception of the tonearm and soundbox, which are of late 1920's design, I think this is a collection of genuine period components crudely assembled into a home made case.

The metal "feet" do not look right either. They serve no useful purpose and will damage any surface they are placed on.

Whatever it's origins, the machine was well worth 90 Euros either as a project or for parts.

epigramophone wrote:Whatever it's origins, the machine was well worth 90 Euros either as a project or for parts.

Agree. The back bracket looks like it could be Pathé.

I suspect the only original parts are the plaques from a top grade horn gramophone , the feet are commonly found on Indian repros and the "Pathé" brass back bracket is also a feature of more elaborate Indian Repros , it is a poor quality casting , the case is nailed together very odd , the motor from the original machine would have been much more substantial

The plaques are well worth the money paid

Another point in its favour is that it has a reasonably large horn; in typical 'crapophones' the horn is no longer or wider than the cabinet. (I presume this is done to make packing easier.) With an upgraded soundbox, a block mounted between the back-bracket and the case to improve the tracking position, and perhaps a more powerful motor, this could probably be made into a good working machine without spending more than it is worth.

Oliver Mundy.

It could benefit of revamping, mounting all the components in another original better case. There are lots of empty cases in the market. Or still better, at a lower cost and serving for training one's abilities on woodworking... to make a new case from scratch, and finishing it properly to get a quality gramophone case, albeit new. A nice tempting project for our friend Nostalgia...

Cut and rotated 180 degrees portable tone arm !

Thank you for all inputs and recommendations. I will see what I do with this gramophone. Most probably it will be a project for the next season, since I now soon close my repair room for the winter. I agree fully that the machine deserves a new cabinet, motor, and for sure a tonearm! You nailed the cut and rotated tonearm, Soundgen! I had not discovered that before uploading the photos.

The plaques are really nice, and heavy, with different motives on each side of the machine. I also like the horn very much, it is well built, made of brass, and have a design that I like.