The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I'm new to the forum, but with one posting to another thread, so some of you are partially briefed into my scenario. I'm restoring a Pathé Model VII that's been in my family for about 45+ years. It used to work fairly well, and the motor (as far as I can tell) is in sound condition but badly in need of cleaning and regreasing. I now understand -- thanks to this forum -- that the rhythmic "thumping" of the motor after sufficient winding has always been one of the springs liberating itself from the solidifying century-old grease inside the drum. Additional repairs to the reproducer and tone arm are needed, but I'll save that for a later thread. First and foremost: the motor -- more specifically, the springs.

I have already completed cursory cleaning and begun disassembly of the motor, taking lots of pictures along the way so that I can put the sucker back together. I'm stuck at the two spring barrels -- can't figure out how they come apart! Please, before everyone advises me to throw them into a box and send them off to a pro for servicing, know this: yes, I am planning to remove and clean the springs myself; and no, I have never done this before. But I've read time and again about the risks, and the excellent "chilldude2007" six-part series on YouTube, "Victor Two Spring Motor Rebuild," is an outstanding tutorial. All said and done, I feel prepared to move ahead... PROVIDED I CAN OPEN THE SPRING BARRELS! Granted, the Victor motor in the video is exceptional since it contains two springs in a single barrel, but I believe this to be a minor technicality. Anyone is welcome to tell me how wrong I am, but I'm convinced that if a Ford Model T of the same era could be repaired by any farmer who knew his way around his own tractor (as was intended), then I can handle this -- working very slowly, carefully and methodically.

The Pathé is designed a bit differently than the Victor in that the shaft that links the two barrels does not simply slide out, which is the big puzzler. Please note from my photos that the barrels are sealed by large gear wheels which are screwed in place (unlike the Victor's spring-clip-band-thingy system). Is there a way to release the shaft, or is it secured inside the barrels? Do I simply unscrew the gears that are capping the barrels (which appears to be the next logical -- albeit risky -- step)? Here are my pics:

OOPS! Didn't mean to post it yet.... Here are more pics: Also, in a different thread "Curt A" suggested just running the motor a few times in a degreasing bath, and then relubricating. While I think there's a good chance that both springs are entirely in tact, I really have to inspect them to know for sure. Is it possible to clean the springs by leaving them in place and immersing the barrels -- tops off -- in my bath? If so, don't they need to dry entirely before I regrease? Oh yes, my materials -- kerosene for cleaning, automotive wheel bearing grease and turbine oil for lubrication... and plenty of rags... and cut-resistant gloves... and an old lab coat... and a face shield.

Eagerly awaiting response from all you pros.

Many thanks... Cheers!
Jim

jimlewis1126 wrote:OOPS! Didn't mean to post it yet.... Here are more pics:

IMG_2387a.jpg

IMG_2395a.jpg

Also, in a different thread "Curt A" suggested just running the motor a few times in a degreasing bath, and then relubricating. While I think there's a good chance that both springs are entirely in tact, I really have to inspect them to know for sure. Is it possible to clean the springs by leaving them in place and immersing the barrels -- tops off -- in my bath? If so, don't they need to dry entirely before I regrease? Oh yes, my materials -- kerosene for cleaning, automotive wheel bearing grease and turbine oil for lubrication... and plenty of rags... and cut-resistant gloves... and an old lab coat... and a face shield.

Eagerly awaiting response from all you pros.

Many thanks... Cheers!
Jim

I would not dunk fully assembled spring barrels in a degreasing bath and expect to regrease and use them afterwards. Nor would I do that with the motor in general. Do it right. Take the springs out, clean and inspect them. Disassemble & clean everything else and reassemble/regrease.

I agree with Jerry.

Taking a spring out for the first time can be scary. I let mine go inside of a big trash can. If definitely recommend wearing gloves for this as well. MAKE SURE, you note which way they are wound in each barrel.... it only works one way.

As far as getting them out.. it’s not that hard. You’ll need to wind the motor all the way down before you remove any gears from it. Unscrew the plate on the top and you should be able remove the gears necessary to take the spring barrel off. Those screws that hold the gear onto the spring barrel are the ones you’ll want to remove in order to get the spring barrels out. (Just lift it straight up) If im remembering correctly from the last Pathé I worked on... you’ll need to start with the bottom barrel first? I don’t remember that shaft being hard to get out.

Also since you’ll be working on the motor.... go ahead and clean the whole thing.

I hope this was helpful!

David

David & Jerry — thanks so much for your guidance. Indeed I plan to completely disassemble and clean the whole motor — it screamed for that attention as soon I removed it from the cabinet (like See-Threepio sighing with relief upon being immersed in an oil bath). In another video I saw the trash can trick for removing the springs from the barrels — it'll really get my heart pumping, but if I take all precautions I should be fine. I've already wound down the motor completely, and I appreciate the reminder to check the direction of the springs. I laid in another safeguard, however, by doing my own video of the motor being wound and running, so knowing the direction that each barrel turns will also tell me the proper direction for reinstalling the springs.

I'm going to wait a bit for more feedback before moving ahead... I like as many perspectives as I can get.

—Jim

Although I have never disassembled a Pathé motor, from your pics the spring barrel "caps" are the large gears serving a dual purpose. Removing the screws in the gears, and then the gears themselves, should be the step that allows you to view the insides of the barrels and the springs themselves. You should then be able to see how to remove the shaft.

"Is it possible to clean the springs by leaving them in place and immersing the barrels -- tops off -- in my bath?"
Personally, if the springs are intact, I wouldn't bother removing them. They can be cleaned by using kerosene, mineral spirits, brake cleaner, engine degreaser, etc. with a toothbrush, sufficiently enough to remove the 100+ year old hardened grease and then re-packing the spring barrels with fresh, modern grease using your fingers to press it into the spring coils.

Don't be tempted to use a period recipe for spring lubrication using Vaseline and graphite. That was all that was available at that time and it is what hardened into the mess you are dealing with. Vaseline is not a "grease", it is technically a wax that was a byproduct of the oil drilling process that had no use, until someone discovered that it helped heal damaged skin... Pioneers also used to "lubricate" wagon wheel hubs with buffalo fat... imagine that smelly mess. Definitely not recommended for modern wheel bearings...

"Pioneers also used to "lubricate" wagon wheel hubs with buffalo fat..."
No wonder the herds grew so thin! (OK, stop throwing things at your screen.)

Many thanks for confirming my instincts about leaving the springs in place. While I've noted from various posts and YouTube videos the importance of checking the springs for staining in order to ensure their longevity, I just want to ensure that they're in tact. You may recall from my reply to David's previous post that I never new what caused the consistent thumping when I cranked the motor to a certain point — I always thought it was simply an indication that the motor was sufficiently wound... and that I believed that having to rewind the motor in the middle of each record was further indication that the spring was worn out (back when I was a complete novice — now I'm just a mostly novice). Who knows how long the motor would run if I'd kept cranking? The CONSISTENCY of the motor's performance tells me that all those years ago when my dad paid $35 for the Pathé, he really got a good deal — despite the age of the existing lubricants, the motor always ran smoothly and silently.

My goal (for now, at least) is a FUNCTIONAL restoration, not PRISTINE — too many little kinks and scratches, plus I've noted from all you pros that this isn't a terribly rare machine (but it's dear to me, and restoring it is a lot of fun). Trust me, I will steer clear of Vaseline and graphite powder, and I assure you I'll have more questions as I move forward (a few bits of the motor, perhaps, but the reproducer and tone arm are the next big items). AND, I'll post pictures of my progress. In the meantime, please feel free to toss any and all wisdom my way... I don't want to make a stupid mistake!

Many thanks... Cheers!
Jim

Just to add another confirmation for not just immersing the motor and running it in cleaning solution: I also collect old calendar clocks. Early on I had an old collector tell me that's how he cleaning the clock works. Every other clock repairman I've talked to since said that was the very worst thing you could do. Not only can you never really get all the cleaning solution out of the mechanism without disassembly but also certain hidden pivot points are now dry and will wear excessively.

You can clean the springs while the are still in the barrel (although they wont come out as clean as if you had taken them out and cleaned them). Just unscrew the gear covers and go from there. The springs won't come out unless you push it out from the backside. Here’s a picture of what my Pathé springs looked like after I cleaned them(I took mine out cause it was broken and I had to fix it)

Id also recommend taking a brush and scrubbing all the teeth on the gears. The cleaner you get the whole motor, to the better it will run once it is back together. Once together, oil the pivot points and grease the gears.

Brett Hurt (Dyslexic Genuis) on Youtube has lots of videos on how to take apart and put motors back together.

Again, best of luck

David

Good points, all. I think I'll likely buckle and remove the springs. After all, what's my hurry?

David — Any word on how to remove shaft so I can separate the barrels? There's still a bunch of old grease between them that I want to clean off. BTW, I've seen Brett's videos.... very informative!

—Jim