The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I know its a bit late for most of our discussion but we have a wide ranging interest in 78's here. My very first passion was collecting the vintage 78 sets being quickly discarded during the "new long play era". I had literally thousands of them at one point. As usual I managed to switch to yet another type which for many years was the acoustic types. And as I am apt to do I gave away all those albums. But they still hold an interest when ever I see them. I thought that having the 45 versions would be a cure and easier to store and deal with. But something about those small hard to read records just didn't quite quench the passion to have the real things again. So I have collected a number of albums some very nice of all types. I don't have any of the wonderful console machines I used to try and have fixed, in fact that is why I dumped them in the first place, I couldn't find any reliable repair people for the machines. But now I have a couple suitcase type solid state machines that play all speeds, so some 78's seemed to be in order again.

Ok, to the topic! What I am wondering is that it seems that columbia records even though in excellent appearance can tend to produce what I would describe as muffled sound in loud passages. I don't seem to be hearing that same thing nearly as much with Victor sets, although they can be raspy depending on the recordings. Oddly the classical pieces seem most troublesome or large orchestral pieces even if of pop selections. Was there an issue with columbia surfaces in that period that is leading to this? I don't think its the machine, but it also could be? I did just read on the Radio site I get on that the flip type needles that are being provided to day usually now have the same size needle on both sides which is a problem in playing 78's, which it would be.

I have an expensive 78 needle I purchased for an Elac German Turntable which I am not using at present either. It has wonderful sound in the cartridge when I had it hooked up. But to play 78's with it was a sound disaster due to the sensitivity it has which made them almost unbearable in surface noise. I have considered trying to change a Dual 1009 turntable which I had restored to use the cartridge which I have in the Elac. But again I am afraid the surface noise will be an issue which is not a problem in the cheaper portable sets.

Larry

larryh wrote: Ok, to the topic! What I am wondering is that it seems that columbia records even though in excellent appearance can tend to produce what I would describe as muffled sound in loud passages. I don't seem to be hearing that same thing nearly as much with Victor sets, although they can be raspy depending on the recordings. Oddly the classical pieces seem most troublesome or large orchestral pieces even if of pop selections. Was there an issue with columbia surfaces in that period that is leading to this? I don't think its the machine, but it also could be? I did just read on the Radio site I get on that the flip type needles that are being provided to day usually now have the same size needle on both sides which is a problem in playing 78's, which it would be.

I'm not sure quite what you mean by muffled sound. Keep in mind that Columbia records (post 1939) used a method of recording master takes to lacquer discs and dubbing them to regular wax masters, which doesn't always result in ideal sound when heard today. Unlike Victor who were still using good old direct cuttings. But then, maybe your phono preamp is overloading or something or other, hard to say without actually hearing it.

larryh wrote:I have an expensive 78 needle I purchased for an Elac German Turntable which I am not using at present either. It has wonderful sound in the cartridge when I had it hooked up. But to play 78's with it was a sound disaster due to the sensitivity it has which made them almost unbearable in surface noise.

What is the stylus size/shape on your expensive cartridge? You'll do well with at least a 3 mil elliptical if you're only planning to have one. A stylus that's a bit too large will produce better results that one that is too small and skates around in the groove, causing extra noise.

Thanks for the reply.

The 78 needle came from germany and is supposed to be the correct size for 78 records. It is obviously larger than the LP needle, I trust the source, although frankly I can't recall the name of the company I got it from.

The Elac Turntable is a fine set, but I found it at a sale and was blown away by the amount of sound coming from the records I had not seemed to hear before. But it has never been serviced and it wants to stick in places that I thought were bad grooves but turns out it is the turntable. Maybe old grease? At the same time I found it I had purchased the Dual 1009 and it also has a nice cartridge, but again not an expert on who's it is. It had a much cleaner or even hard sound. I was told that some people prefer it to the sound of the Elac one. So now I own a cartridge in the arm of the Elac that I purchased a new needle for, but the turntable I have had restored is the 1009. I am not very mechanical and have resisted attempting to switch the cartridges lest I break something, but for testing purposes I would like to hear the cartridge in the Dual.

As to the columbia pressings, that may be the issue, its worse towards the end which is always harder to get the sound recorded cleanly on, but it will do it though out to a degree. Tonight I was listening to some new sets I got. A piano record by Cavallaro of waltzes. It sounds distorted as the notes are struck loudly. Here again the record appears pretty good. I also got a red seal unbreakable red vinyl victor of classical things. It in comparison plays pretty clearly so I don't think the needle or record player is to blame.

Larry

larryh wrote: But it has never been serviced and it wants to stick in places that I thought were bad grooves but turns out it is the turntable.

Tonight I was listening to some new sets I got. A piano record by Cavallaro of waltzes. It sounds distorted as the notes are struck loudly. Here again the record appears pretty good.

Sometimes, these types of problems can be caused by insufficient tracking weight. Make sure you are at`least on 3 grams of pressure when playing 78's.

About half that for vinyl LP's, depending on your cartridge instruction recommendations, if you have them.

And if you have a small (15-20 watts or something) solid state receiver/amplifier, it may be insufficient for high amplitude 78 rpm records. Especially of piano, which can be tough to reproduce on dynamic peaks, without sufficient reserves of power.

That amp issue may be correct. I think the whole set only uses something like 45 watts if I recall the tag. I don't know if it has a setting for weight of the arm or not since its a 60's portable. I will take a look an see if any kind of adjustment is possible on the rear of the arm.

You seem to be up on things electronic. Do you know what people do to play 78's though a sensitive amplifier so that they aren't overwhelmed with the scratch effect? Is it something you add in line or does one have to have a special amplifier to do this successfully. I have a low watt, but good quality NAD amp from the 80s.

Larry

larryh wrote:

You seem to be up on things electronic. Do you know what people do to play 78's though a sensitive amplifier so that they aren't overwhelmed with the scratch effect? Is it something you add in line or does one have to have a special amplifier to do this successfully. I have a low watt, but good quality NAD amp from the 80s.

People can use analog filter sets such as the OWL, more sophisticated noise reduction components that are available these days. Or use a graphic equalizers or even the amplifier tone controls usually with the aim to to cut the high frequencies and reduce the amount of surface noise getting through.

Some very old amps have settings for differing phono EQ curves, built in /switches low pass filters and such, but these days you're looking to install something in line.

This site could give you some ideas, there are more...


http://www.esotericsound.com/NoiseReduction.htm

Thanks I will check that site out!

One other question about the cartridges. I have that good Elac cartridge with the new 78 needle. I have no expertise at trying to switch the cartridge and have not attempted to do it because I am leery of breaking the tiny wires or getting it hooked up wrong. Any thoughts on this? I could also try to figure out what cartridge the Dual has and see if a 78 needle might be available still somewhere for it. It also has a "pull out" type needle that makes switching them pretty simple if you have the right needles. Unfortunately the one I got for the Elac is a different shape than what the Dual takes.

Larry

larryh wrote:Thanks I will check that site out!

One other question about the cartridges. I have that good Elac cartridge with the new 78 needle. I have no expertise at trying to switch the cartridge and have not attempted to do it because I am leery of breaking the tiny wires or getting it hooked up wrong. Any thoughts on this? I could also try to figure out what cartridge the Dual has and see if a 78 needle might be available still somewhere for it. It also has a "pull out" type needle that makes switching them pretty simple if you have the right needles. Unfortunately the one I got for the Elac is a different shape than what the Dual takes.

Larry

Most Dual and Miracord/Elac turntables have removable head-shells. You can (and I do) have multiple cartridges pre-mounted for quick change out depending on the type of record I want to play. Most of the modern players available from the specialist dealers have easily interchangeable headshells too.

A multi-band graphic equalizer is the simplest to acquire piece of playback equipment to contour the sound to make 78's sound good. You need a hard roll-off above the highest frequency cut on the record, and of course this varies with the time-period of the recording. Those of us who are serious about modern playback of vintage records generally have multiple styli of different sizes to match different records. There was a wide margin of groove size over the last 100 years.

I have not found the Columbia Red label discs of the late 1930's, 1940's to be particularly noisy, but, to me, the sound in general is often inferior to Victor product of the same period, and I believe this was due to the mastering on 16" lacquer and dubbing to 10" wax for production. They also may have used more compression in the signal than the other brands.

Phototone wrote: There was a wide margin of groove size over the last 100 years.

Sure, the companies really never did conform to any standard tip on their cutterheads back in the 78 era.
Though I think most 78 records can be reasonably accommodated by playback styli range of 2 to 4 mils, with exceptions, of course.

Phototone wrote: I have not found the Columbia Red label discs of the late 1930's, 1940's to be particularly noisy.

I haven't either. Maybe some of the wartime discs have noiser surfaces, which was normal across the industry, but clean Columbia's are generally okay in regards to noise. However, it's possible the laminated surfaces they had wore out quicker on the record players of the day.
At least, it seems to me like the garden variety 78's that I find with the most substantial wear seem to be those red label Columbia's. Or maybe it's just that the young people from back then really liked to rock out to their Gene Krupa and Kay Kyser more than other artists.

I just had a very surprising find! I don't still know if I am correct in what I think I see. I found another GE stylus for the flip LP/78 playing on the Slimline 500 portable I am currently using for mostly 78's. When I looked at it to see if one stylus was larger since I had heard that some times now they just use the small tip on either side. When held to the light the larger stylus was pretty obvious to me. But what threw me was when I tired to position it like it was on the arm showing the 78 in the up position, it puts the LP stylus down in the play position. All these years I thought those flip stylus were made to show which side was playing when viewed from the top? But its not possible with either of the two I have. So does it mean that when the LP is up that it really means that the 78 stylus is in play position?
This may explain a great deal of why I was hearing distorted piano on some columbia's as well as fuzzy tones on the classical ones.
Am I right or am I nuts?