The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Yes, an odd subject title. Though I have not heard one in person, only videos of them, I must say that I'm very impressed by their performance. I'm sure that if I were to hear one in person, the result would be all the more impressive. So, what is the reason/s for their supremacy? Is it the reproducer? Though they have a unique look and design, I can't see anything technically that appears to be so very special about them. The spring arrangement appears to allow for maximum compliance, but the diaphragm appears too simple and mundane to be a real performer. Is it the horn? This, I could believe, is the biggest contributor to performance, given its shape & length. Or, is it the combination of both???

The looks of them we'll leave for another day... "Form follows function"?

This may be a long thread

The EMG and Expert gramophones are scientifically designed throughout, the soundboxes are very, very good, they use pure grade aluminium for the diaphragms which is very compliant, they are fairly simple diaphragms, but sometimes simplicity works, and the springs as well as the back being 'loose' allowing to adjust the pressure on the diaphragm by the gaskets make them highly adjustable, they're also quite heavy (especially the 4 springs, two of mine being 214 grams, I haven't weighed the third) which gives the diaphragm a bit more weight to work against and thus makes it more responsive, you may notice with some lighter soundboxes that when they're playing and you carefully place your finger against the body of the soundbox, you can feel the body itself vibrating, do the same thing with an EMG or Expert sounbox that vibration is greatly subdued as the diaphragm is taking all of the vibration and very little is being transferred to the body due to the inertia, the weight also helps to bed fibre needles in the groove (a heavy 4 spring really shouldn't be used with steel needles without a counterweight)

The horns are a very important part to an EMG, and so is the entire acoustic system, great care is taken for the acoustic system to be totally airtight, and it is also a constant cylindrical taper from soundbox horn mouth, by that I mean there are never any reductions in the acoustic expansion and no steps which can be detrimental to sound quality, the horns themselves are mathematically calculated to be perfectly exponential to allow the sound waves to expand as evenly as possible, and the acoustic length is very long, but unlike the Re-Entrant or Orthorphonic machines, there are no fold, and the horn mouth is round opposed to square, which helps with things.
The tonearms and conduits are all cast, the conduits are cast with a grade of aluminium which makes them acoustically inert to give a purer representation of the record, likewise the horn bells are made of Papier Applique, like paper mache but with larger sheets of paper, thick sugar type paper being used for the main structural build up of the horn, this is also almost totally acoustically inert so as not to colour the sound.

Its hard to explain all the intricacies of an EMG, others may do it better (I'm a little scatter brained, lack of caffeine to be blamed), they were (and are) acoustically on the cutting edge, very little has come close to them before or since for acoustic performance.
The looks arent for everybody, but I'm one of the ones that think they are wonderful looking things, the cabinet work is often gorgeous, the papers used on the horns can be stunning and I like the shape, though perhaps I am a little odd!

It's tricky to pass along the benefits without actually playing one to hear in person, but before I got my first one I was slightly skeptical on all the hype, but I then heard one and I was irreversibly hooked, now I've got 4 (Well, 3 and a half) of them and they get played everyday and I'd never be without one!

EMG Mk 10B and Expert Senior were two of the very best models produced by both rival companies back in the day. EMG started off by simply tinkering around the periphery of what was a standard gramophone and they followed a steady but small stream of unique British makers who were attempting to improve a flawed instrument including Henry Seymour, Apollo, Vesper and others.

In my honest opinion early EMG's are unremarkable in relation to what other instruments already existed.

It wasn't until EMG marketed the Wilson Panharmonic horn that their fortunes improved slightly. With that said, by the time it was sold even HMV had improved their stock and trade horn model into the Model 32 which EMG would clone for their Mark 8. In other words EMG were followers, not leaders. The HMV 511 was a better conversion of the Lumiere diaphragm 510 than the EMG Wilson Horn conversion of it. However, the EMG conversion was better than the Lumiere and cheaper for an existing customer to have converted than buying a replacement machine. By contrast HMV had already introduced the 202/3 re-entrants by the time of the EMG Mark 7 cabinet gramophone so the latter was behind the times and could not compete on any level with the Western Electric "Orthophonic" horn system.

I'd advise reading "The EMG Story" by Francis James. It tells the story of how EMG progressed into a credible but niche horn gramophone maker before financial problems hit and the founder, Ellis Michael Ginn, was forced to restart under the name "Expert".

This is when real major improvements were made - in the early 30s with two companies competing against each other to produce bigger, longer and better acoustic horns.

As to what makes EMG / Expert large horn gramophones the best acoustic machines in the world, its the pairing of finely, hand-tuned soundboxes (really just advanced versions of the Exhibition) with the longest acoustic systems with horns with the largest flares, all the while being exponentially tapered. The horn material, papier mache, is also the best for sound reproduction.

So what makes an EMG? I think its the combination of giant horn and integral acoustic system which no mainstream manufacturer could or would have made at the time, along with that British eccentricity to make something so aesthetically outrageous whilst refusing to compromise sound reproduction quality or pander to mainstream conventions of taste in the process.

As Alex says, this thread could be rather a long one but it may initially be helpful to read and fully assimilate the details in "the Bible" written by the men who were mainly responsible for the scientific design of EMG/Expert gramophones in the late nineten-twenties and early thirties.

https://archive.org/details/ModernGramo ... 1/mode/2up

Thanks so much. I'm certainly beginning to "get the picture". It's not just the reproducer, or just the horn, or.... It's everything, from the tip of the needle to the horn opening, with big doses of mathematics & obsession for excellence packed in between! I just love the comment from Steve, "So what makes an EMG? I think its the combination of giant horn and integral acoustic system which no mainstream manufacturer could or would have made at the time, along with that British eccentricity to make something so aesthetically outrageous whilst refusing to compromise sound reproduction quality or pander to mainstream conventions of taste in the process."

Gosh... now I want one. I'd had have to put an addition on the house to fit it in however!

Jerry,

I'm glad you're hooked on the line. Now we just need to reel you in by getting you to hear an EMG or Expert machine in person. When you do, there is no turning back. You WILL want one, I guarantee.

I've been offered £10,000 for my Expert Senior but I wouldn't sell it as I couldn't possibly replace it, not just the sound reproduction quality but the history of the actual machine.

Steve wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:16 pm
I've been offered £10,000 for my Expert Senior but I wouldn't sell it as I couldn't possibly replace it, not just the sound reproduction quality but the history of the actual machine.

I completely understand. I have things like that too. My grandfather's Model T Ford as an example. No amount of money would be sufficient. Yet, "one day", my hope is that the right opportunity will present itself for me to give it away. (But, not yet. )

Hi Jerry, Yes these EMGs ND Expert models are totally BRITISH!-and we are proud of them.
I do know of one Expert Senior 28inch diameter horn, in Britain, near Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, that I think is still for sale from a past gramophone dealer.
Sometimes you have to wait a long time to find a really good one. They are massive AND very heavy!!
I wish you well in your search.

Very interesting thread, and I was thinking the other day of asking a similar question, more from the point of why there don't seem to be any clones or imitations of EMG/Expert soundboxes. Now it may be just that I am unaware of them, being quite new to this hobby, but I have seen Exhibition clones and soundboxes which show more than a passing resemblance to a No.4. The EMG/Expert ones seem to be of fairly simple construction and I would have thought imitations would exist. I am not saying the imitations would be any good, just that they would have been made.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks
mrrgstuff

mrrgstuff wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:21 pm Very interesting thread, and I was thinking the other day of asking a similar question, more from the point of why there don't seem to be any clones or imitations of EMG/Expert soundboxes. Now it may be just that I am unaware of them, being quite new to this hobby, but I have seen Exhibition clones and soundboxes which show more than a passing resemblance to a No.4. The EMG/Expert ones seem to be of fairly simple construction and I would have thought imitations would exist. I am not saying the imitations would be any good, just that they would have been made.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Thanks
mrrgstuff

There were clones of EMG soundboxes made but judging by the prices some "EMG" soundboxes make at auction I doubt very much some people are aware of them or indeed would know how to spot one.

I bought a reproduction one many years ago made by a retired engineer who was in the CLPGS but there were also Astra soundboxes made back in the day which look quite similar.