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Please have a look at the photo. To the left of the bracket is a plate with a pin in it. The pin slides in from the top and is removable. What is this plate? The spindle on this Victor M is not threaded for a record hold-down clamp.

It’s for a front mount horn?

This curious bracket has been discussed a few times, but in my attempts to search for it, the only one I could find was this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24099

As I recall no one has found an irrefutable answer for why Victor used this odd piece, beyond covering front-mount holes. I had one on my former rigid arm MS and often wondered myself. They are fairly commonly found, however.

I believe I read somewhere that it was for a crane when someone wanted a larger horn in a rigid arm machine, because the elbow couldn't support the weight. Kind of makes sense. because it only shows up on machines around the time when rigid arms where made. But no documentation to point to.

Andreas

I have a front-mount E with the usual support arm. This sort of support arm is stationary where attached to the case; the horn pivot point is where the far end of the horn sits in a cradle. It's the cradle that rotates. If my words fail, I'm sure people know what I mean.

Perhaps this strange attachment is also a pivot point, but one that is close to the case. Behind it are two holes where a support arm would have been positioned for a front-mount machine. There is a bolt inserted into this attachment that seems original, but, heh, what do I know.

I'll take some pictures inside and outside the case. With more information, we might be able to divine its purpose.

John

jboger wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:04 pm Please have a look at the photo. To the left of the bracket is a plate with a pin in it. The pin slides in from the top and is removable. What is this plate? The spindle on this Victor M is not threaded for a record hold-down clamp.

I'm not quite certain what purpose the pin serves here. If, as has been suggested, the plate could be used to hold a crane for a larger horn with a rigid arm, the pin would be superfluous, as the crane itself could simply be inserted there. Until we find some archival info from VTMCo itself, or until an example turns up with the crane intact, we can only guess.

- Bill

I forgot to photograph the pin in the above pictures. So if you look for it, you won't find it. I will photograph it later.

Here are some more pictures. Now you can see the pin I referred to.

If this attachment held a rod, then the rod needed to bend outward away from the case in order to clear the lid moulding. Eyeballing it, the bend would need to be about 30 degrees from the vertical to clear the lid.

Inside the case you can see that the attachment covers two holes that I suspect covered up the holes for the horn support arm for a front-mount machine. Could the pin have been used in a similar manner as for a door hinge? If so, this attachment would be something like a knuckle on a door hinge. If not, then it seems useless and someone just put it there. It is a good fit.

The bracket plate has two pairs of holes (four total). This plate looks undisturbed. Don't know why there are an extra set of holes in the plate.

The machine was sold by Sherman, Clay & Co / San Francisco. They sold pianos, music boxes, talking machines--things associated with the making of music. Many of you already know that.

I lean towards the "knuckle" being used to support a horn crane for a rigid-arm Victor.

Here's a "stab" at what happened: The case was intended originally for a front-mount machine. That never happened as technological advances (travelling arm --> rigid arm--> tapered tone arm) occurred rapidly in the first five years of the 20th C. It originally sold as a rigid-arm machine with this "knuckle", then was upgraded shortly thereafter to a tapered arm talking machine.

I'll leave it to those better informed than I to tear that down.

By the way, there is a similar M on a well-known Internet auction site. Beautiful machine.

The pin you show is just a garden variety clevis pin. Not phono related.

jboger wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:47 pm
The bracket plate has two pairs of holes (four total). This plate looks undisturbed. Don't know why there are an extra set of holes in the plate.

The extra holes: are they also in the cabinet itself? These were to adjust the height of the bracket for either a Concert or Exhibition soundbox.

- Bill