The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I am going to start a thread here in which I post things about my A-V machine, asking for advice and opinions.

1.

The first thing I will discuss is the missing shelving from the cabinet. It was removed with some modest level of violence, either because it wasn't wanted or because it had become broken.

In A-V models with the Graduola, there is a bulkhead on the left side of the lower cabinet which creates a pocket between it and the sidewall of the cabinet for the Graduola cable to rest in when fully inserted. The original bulkhead which probably formed the left side wall of the shelving was probably damaged in the removal of the shelving, and a new one was fabricated out of some hardwood plywood, perhaps rotary cut maple. This work was done long ago. The plywood is of a serious grade that would be very hard to find now, and the good side surface veneer is so thick that it could be sanded till the cows come home without abrading through it. Also the screws holding it in are plain carbon steel and have a bit of rust on them. The work was competent but not highly professional. Whoever did the work here left their fingerprints in the walnut/ebony stain that doesn't quite match the colour of the cabinet - so if they have a criminal record ....

I spent yesterday morning repairing this repair bulkhead. The plywood had warped away from the struts that hold it away from the cabinet side wall, and the glue joints between the plywood and the struts had come loose in multiple places.

I could probably fabricate new shelving of some sort that would bear a superficial resemblance to the original - there are enough pictures floating around to model something after so that it would look similar with the cabinet doors open. The major difficulty now would be finding a good quality ¼" plywood that would stand up to use as shelving.

And the likelihood of finding an A-V being parted out with shelving intact by someone willing to remove it carefully and sell and ship it as flat-pack is slim to none.

So it is probably best just leave things as they are?

2.

The next thing is what I found in the pocket between the repair bulkhead and the side wall of the cabinet.

There was a tag which had probably originally been in the movement/horn chamber of the cabinet and then had fallen into the pocket.

I am wondering if it is a factory tag or some third party service tag - it has a Nashville stamp and appears to have a date code of 822-20 which I would read as August 22, 1920. The gramophone was sold to me as being circa 1918 - 1918 or 1920 close enough when you add circa I would guess. The F. Oak stamp would seem to indicate French Oak? The cabinet is quarter sawn figured oak or more probably veneer. The case number or style appears to be 510. There are also some illegible scribbles which are probably someone's initials.

I have done some fidgeting with the scan settings to make the tag more legible. It is very heavily foxed.

Any thoughts or opinions on or knowledge about the tag?

I agree with your assessment of a date: 8-22-20.

It's likely that the "F Oak" indicates "Fumed Oak," a popular finish at the time.

George P.

phonogfp wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:59 am I agree with your assessment of a date: 8-22-20.

It's likely that the "F Oak" indicates "Fumed Oak," a popular finish at the time.

George P.

Thank you.

3.

The AV is obviously capable of playing vertically cut records.

3a. What types of vertically cut records can be played on this machine?

3b. Is a different type of needle required?

3c. Can and should are not the same. Should vertically cut records be played on this machine?

At the moment, this set of questions is entirely academic. I do not think I own any vertically cut recordings.

Lah Ca wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:11 pm 3.

The AV is obviously capable of playing vertically cut records.

3a. What types of vertically cut records can be played on this machine?

3b. Is a different type of needle required?

3c. Can and should are not the same. Should vertically cut records be played on this machine?

At the moment, this set of questions is entirely academic. I do not think I own any vertically cut recordings.

I wouldn't play Edison discs on it, but I think pretty much anything else would be fair game. For Pathé and its imitators (Rex, Rishell, Disque Ideal, Disque Aerophone, Disque Diamond--how did the Edison people let *that* one slip by?--etc., etc.) you'll need a sapphire ball stylus. A few labels issued vertical cut steel needle records, usually for a brief period before switching to lateral; Aeolian Vocalion and Lyric were examples. For those, of course, you need no special stylus.

4.

Wood screws.

All photos I have seen of similar AV gramophones have two different sets of slot-head screws in the two decks in the turntable chamber.

There are two large ones without washers, one on either side of the tone arm base.

Then there are four smaller ones in the corners of the deck which holds the tone arm and needle cups. Then there are another four the same in the corners of the turntable deck. All eight are the same size and all have metal washers with an indentation that fits into countersunk holes in the two decks.

All ten screws and eight washers have a gun metal finish.

On my machine, the four screws and washers in the tone arm/cup deck are intact.

The screws in the turntable deck are not. They are of a similar vintage and finish to the originals but they are smaller and shorter and have different style slot heads, and there are no washers. When I got the gramophone, there were only two of four in the deck. I did not understand the significance of this at the time, but luckily I removed the platter, secured the tone arm by wrapping it in bubble wrap and taping it in place with wide painter's tape, and filled the turntable chamber with bubble wrap so that the lid closed snugly and then taped the lid down before transporting the machine (of necessity) on its back - whew! - transport disaster averted!!! The two replacement screws in the turntable deck do not secure it in place. They are too short. I found a third one of the "new" screws in the pocket for the Graduola cable when I was fixing the bulkhead for that pocket. I now have three vintage screws in place in the turntable deck that do nothing.

I have looked for similar screws and washers to the originals but am not having much luck so far.

Any ideas for replacements?

drh wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:22 pm

Lah Ca wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:11 pm 3.

The AV is obviously capable of playing vertically cut records.

3a. What types of vertically cut records can be played on this machine?

3b. Is a different type of needle required?

3c. Can and should are not the same. Should vertically cut records be played on this machine?

At the moment, this set of questions is entirely academic. I do not think I own any vertically cut recordings.

I wouldn't play Edison discs on it, but I think pretty much anything else would be fair game. For Pathé and its imitators (Rex, Rishell, Disque Ideal, Disque Aerophone, Disque Diamond--how did the Edison people let *that* one slip by?--etc., etc.) you'll need a sapphire ball stylus. A few labels issued vertical cut steel needle records, usually for a brief period before switching to lateral; Aeolian Vocalion and Lyric were examples. For those, of course, you need no special stylus.

Thank you. A very interesting and useful answer.

I play Pathé records in my av and they sound great!
Be careful with the revolver soundbox. The thin end of the tonearm where the z elbow of the soundbox enters is delicate and thin. It's made of pot metal and prone to cracks. Mine is completely fallen apart, so I made an emergency repair to be able to play it. Always move the soundbox delicately and never force it! A replacement tonearm is impossible to get. I've been for years after one without success...
I had no sapphire ball, but I was lucky enough to find one inside the machine when I bought it!

Inigo wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:40 pm I play Pathé records in my av and they sound great!
Be careful with the revolver soundbox. The thin end of the tonearm where the z elbow of the soundbox enters is delicate and thin. It's made of pot metal and prone to cracks. Mine is completely fallen apart, so I made an emergency repair to be able to play it. Always move the soundbox delicately and never force it! A replacement tonearm is impossible to get. I've been for years after one without success...
I had no sapphire ball, but I was lucky enough to find one inside the machine when I bought it!

Lucky you! I only found a bunch of rusty old needles, most but not all of them used. And, of course, the interesting tag, posted above.

Thanks.