The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

hello to all, i have a vv 4-3 that for the life of me i cannot get it to play a record. whenever i put the reproducer to the disc the turn table stops. after tinkering with the motor and governor for the last several days i have come to the conclusion the tone arm must be bent. for one it does not appear the reproducer is positioned properly when lowered onto a disc that is not moving. it's hard to explain so i am posting a pic that perhaps other vv 4-3 owners could compare their mach's to see if there is a difference. other than a bent tone arm i cannot figure what else it may be. i cannot get the turn table to turn any faster as the weights whould start hitting the bottom of the motor board. i estimate the speed at close to 80 rpm. i even swapped out the motor with another working mach. and ended up with the same results. i bought the mach. last spring knowing it had the wrong reproducer on it. it needed some cabinet work and such. so while i had it in piece's i bought an orthophonic reproducer. did what i wanted to do put it all back together and tada it don't work to my untrained eye to looks like the small section of tone arm (u shaped) is open to wide when looking straight down at it. but there does not appear to be any signs of stress (cracked plating)on the arm to indicate it has been bent back. makes one wonder what happened to the original reproducer hhhmmmmm. anyway if the arm proves out of shape any tips on how to reshape (without damaging it ) thanks dan
p.s. if today is the first day of winter why have i been sholveling snow for over a month already

I don't think the tonearm is bent, but I'll let someone more knowledgeable try to diagnose your real problem.

I will say that the vinyl record you have on the turntable isn't a good match for that machine. It's probably not causing your problem, but you will ruin the record fairly quickly playing it with a steel needle and heavy soundbox.

I bet the guy above is right, is that a vinyl 78 or a regular one? If it's vinyl then it's to light and it will stop, if it's regular, I bet you need new springs on your governor, I had this issue with a machine I had, and that's what it was, it was supposed to have 3 springs and weights, and had just 2, it wouldn't play right, changed them and put 3 new ones on there and it works perfect, pull the motor board and make sure one spring isn't missing or just replace them. Try that

hi and thanks for the advice all three weights are present and working. as for the record theory the record it is a 78 and works fine on my victrola barona(vv4-40) which has basically the same motor assembly and orthophonic reproducer. i do notice that reproducer seems positioned better on my barona. i will post a pic of that tomorrow, i was told once that this late style of 78 is ok to play on these phonographs as long as you only use a soft tone needle. but thats another subject. thanks dan

Is your reproducer twisted on the tone arm all of the way? That is that the angle of the needle should be at about a 7:30 - 8:00 position. Also, the type of record really does have an effect. Vinyl is too soft and creates a lot of drag. I've also had dirty or worn out records stop a motor before. Try a nice Victor scroll

While ordinary soft tone needles are indeed recommended to play late "shellac" discs, they shouldn't be used on plastic/vinyl or acetate discs. They were really only designed to be played with electric lightweight pick-ups. I do play some of mine on the 202 using HMV trailer needles, but again these were really meant to be used in conjunction with an electric pick-up, & I dont know whether Victor made these or not- I would imagine they did??
I'm actually surprised you're not getting black swarf everywhere as the point shaves the vinyl.
I haven't had any real dramas playing very late vinyl on the 202 or most other machines using trailer needles, but admittedly I dont play them very often.
Then again, some of the early flexible plastic discs from the 1920s that I have, I use nothing but loud tone steel on, and they dont seem to be effected either, although I'm sure the ingredience was quite different after 30 yrs- perhaps abrasives were added to early plastic disc similar to shellac of the same era??
If you're having the same problem playing most shellac discs, and you've got all the motor adjustments as good as you can get them, then it might be a tied spring problem & new replacement springs should fix it. (Unless there's a worn gear or bearing somewhere, but that's pretty unlikely in a motor of this era). Also check that the ball bearing directly below the spindle shaft is still there, as they can easily fall out without being noticed while cleaning old lube from the motor.
If your 4-3 is an earlier single spring version, the angle of the needle on the record may well cause the motor to slow or stop.
The double spring version however should be able to make it through a 10" disc of any era, even if the needle was at 90 degrees to the record.
Of course this all only applies if the discs are in very good condition. A worn record will always put a lot of extra strain on a motor.

Dan,

Your tone arm is NOT bent. As some have suggested, playing that record on an acoustic phonograph, with any style of needle, will ruin the record and will create extra drag on the motor.

How far have you cranked the motor before trying to play the record? All the way? Cranking all the way is generally not good practice, however, I have helped out several people who have had the same problem only to learn that they turn the crank 4 or 5 turns and expect the machine to play. (Forgive me, but I don't know your level of experience with phonographs)

It is also possible that your springs have weakened and may need to be replaced. Swapping out motors, as you have done, should have made some difference, unless of course that motor had its own issues.

Hi.

It kind of looks like the tone arm is too long. Where would the needle land when it meets the spindle? In front, right on, or behind and by how much? If this was a machine that had a crumbled potmetal back bracket, somebody might have been tempted to replace it with a tone arm from a different machine. It may be fine, but I thought you might want to check it out. Good luck!

-Martin

hi and thanks again to all, i can understand that playing a soft vinyl record can put some serious drag on the motor. but the said record plays fine on my vv4-40 which has the same motor assembly and reproducer. which is why i took the motor out of the 4-40 and put it in the motor housing of the 4-3. my 4-3 has the double spring motor and i had previously removed the springs cleaned and regreaed them. i do not normally crank my phono's all the way. if the motor is completely unwound i will crank it 10-12 times which is enough to get me thru a disc or two. the pot metal bracket holding the tone arm is in great shape no chips, crack's, or breaks anywhere. the reproducer is turned on all the way and in the 7:00-8:00 position. there does not appear to be any stripped or worn gears. with the motor removed all appetures move freely spindle, governor, worm drive gear etc. when i get home from work today the first thing i will try is a different disc to see if that works. also just for the sake of saying i tried that i am going to take the tone arm from my 4-40 and mount it on the 4-3 to see if that makes any difference. because with the 4-40 when the reproducer is at the edge of the turn table the line of travel appears to take it right to the spindle. but when you look at the 4-3 the line of travel appears to take it in front of the spindle. i will recheck tonight post some pics and tell you of the results. thanks again

The tonearm looks OK to me. On both my HMV 101 (pre-orthophonic) and 130 models (with exponential horn) the geometry was similar. A single spring pre 1930 gramophone just doesn't have the power to play a postwar record, especially not if it is vinyl. I remember playing a 1956 Frank Sinatra on my portable and had to wind up twice during play. These records were so loud that the motor just couldn't cope. Not mentioning the wear of a quarter pound of soundbox leaning into a groove that was designed for max 20 grams (metric). It played earlier records perfectly well.
So indeed, try a nice victor scroll and see if the problems pertain.

Peter