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Can anyone Id This External Horn Victor IV ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 3D1&_rdc=1

Crank is to Far to the Rear and the Tag appears to be aluminum .

Hmmm

Nipper

My guess is the original motor was replaced with a crappy one, then the old hole
was covered with new veneer to make it look "natural". Another possibility is the
whole base is a better than average crapophone from India mounted with some real parts
for good measure.

Serial number and appearance (other than soundbox) seem consistent with the latest/final model described in Baumbach's Victor Data Book. Not a crapophone.

antique1973 wrote:My guess is the original motor was replaced with a crappy one, then the old hole
was covered with new veneer to make it look "natural". Another possibility is the
whole base is a better than average crapophone from India mounted with some real parts
for good measure.

Well, I suppose one MIGHT guess as you did, but note the proportions of the cabinet. It is wider, but no taller
than the more common early Victor IV machines. This is an example of a very late production instrument which was fitted
with the Burton motor. I would guess that it dates from the last run of the IV which appears to have been made around 1920. After stocks of this final run were exhausted prospective purchasers of this model were directed to the improved Victor V, with it's four-spring motor, 12"turntable and mahogany cabinet.

These very late machines have always been a special interest of mine. The late IV machines are very rare. I only recall seeing one other that was this late, in a collection in Ponce, Porto Rico.

The late Burton motor will not fit into a standard Victor IV cabinet. This unit is about an inch larger in width and depth
than the regular IV. n addition, note the grain of the crank side of the machine. it is quite evidently a piece of solid Cuban Mahogany, rather than any of the other tropical woods which would be used on an Indian machine. Thai cut of Cuban mahogany is available as veneer, but generally on special order. It is very difficult to find. Had this machine been fiddled with one would expect to find the side covered with the more commonly available rift or rotary cut veneer, perhaps even a bit of (so-called) Phillipene Mahogany, which is of course a different species entirely.

I note that whilst I was posting my rather long-winded response, AZ "cut to the chase", as it were, and hit the nail squarely on it's head.

I believe the machine is all correct and unusual. The parts, like the later tone arm, are consistent with Victrolas that were made at the same time. If you look in the Victor Data Book, the horn models continued into the 1920's in small numbers and this machine is one of them. It's definitely and oddity and it will be interesting to see if the final price is any different than a "usual" Vic IV. Jerry Blais

As a collector that has seen and bought many machines down in Mexico. I can say without doubt that this Vic 4 is 100% correct and very rare. It is very late made (1920's).Also Vic 4's were very popular down there. Even more than in the US. This will explain why it is at this price already. Too bad the case was re-done. However, the horn is in great condition and to find a slip elbow horn is no easy task at all.In 20 years, I have pulled out some great machines down there.
BTW, I know of three there right now for sale. However, they are too rough for my liking. Also, to give some of you a good idea of that market. I just had my Sister in-law pick up a "mint" very early (1900) Stickley Arts & Crafts bookcase down there last week. Can't wait to bring it home!!!!

One other thing about this Vic 4 listing. Can anyone explain to me "WHY" some fools contact the seller of things and tell them everything about the item they are selling. I just wonder if these same fools walk in to a antique store and tell the dealer (before they buy it) that it is price way too low...... :lol. I guess some like to be a "know it all" in their own mind. I could never understand this. Even worst is the fact they don't even bid on the item .

gramophone78 wrote: One other thing about this Vic 4 listing. Can anyone explain to me "WHY" some fools contact the seller of things and tell them everything about the item they are selling. I just wonder if these same fools walk in to a antique store and tell the dealer (before they buy it) that it is price way too low...... :lol. I guess some like to be a "know it all" in their own mind. I could never understand this. Even worst is the fact they don't even bid on the item .

I've often wondered the same thing.

"Q: Just for your edification, this isn't a Victrola. Victrolas are indeed made ONLY by the Victor Talking Machine Company, but Victrolas have the horn concealed within the cabinet. If an old record player has an external horn, it may or may not be made by Victor, but it is definitely NOT a Victrola. Your Victor has a morning glory horn (not "petunia"). And FYI, your machine is assembled from a variety of different parts not found together on Victors made for the American market. There has been some discussion of your machine on antique phonograph collector boards because some less experienced collectors think it is something someone cobbled together in a garage from various parts. However, this is not the case. It was built by Victor for the Mexican/Latin American market. External horn machines remained popular there even after the intro of the Victrola. Victor used up old parts to produce machines like these. It is real, not a 'Frankenphone'. Dec-24-10
A: Thanks for your fascinating input. I'll post it for others to learn from. That's what is so great about antique collecting... you learn new things every day from interesting people with all sorts of passions. While we are far from experts in this particular field, we do want you to know that we at the RI Antiques Mall know that the terms Victrola and Petunia are technically incorrect. We debated using them but decided to use them in quotation marks only because we've heard and seen the terms mis-used so many times, so we thought it would help some folks in their key word searches. BTW... the consignor of this item is Hispanic so your explanation makes perfect sense to us. I can assure you that at least they (who didn't even know how to use it) and we (who wouldn't know where to start) did not fool with this machine in any way."

gramophone78 wrote: Can anyone explain to me "WHY" some fools contact the seller of things and tell them everything about the item they are selling. I just wonder if these same fools walk in to a antique store and tell the dealer (before they buy it) that it is price way too low...... :lol. I guess some like to be a "know it all" in their own mind.

Me three! I had a 1967 vehicle for sale, about a year ago; I got numerous emails and messageboard notes, telling me that I didn't describe it right, and it should have this instead of that, and why am I saying it is "solid" when it has rust, etc etc. My reply: Are you coming to look at it? Are you going to buy it? No? Then shut up. haha

Hmmm

After reading and listening to a couple collectors I have to steer towards being a late true original

victor IV External horn That was exported to MEXICO .

The only drawback is being offer on Ebay

Ps Nice Pics Retrograde

Aloha

Nipper