The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hello everyone, I am wondering what could be the lifetime of the sapphire tip of the Edison model C reproducer.. how many times it can play cylinders before wearing?

Thank you for helping me with this curiosity.

I've got one Model C that I've had for over 30 yrs and AFAIK it's the original sapphire and has never been replaced. It still seems to play fine to my ears.
So I would say a good sapphire should play many hundreds of cylinders provided you don't damage the sapphire through rough handling or by playing damaged wax cylinders.

If you play celluloid cylinders with a sapphire however, you'll be damaging the stylus straight away and the more celluloid you play the faster the sapphire will wear.
I've found you only need to play 10-20 celluloid cylinders with a sapphire before the stylus is damaged enough to start skipping grooves or visibly wear the grooves of a wax cylinder.

gramophoneshane wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 3:17 am If you play celluloid cylinders with a sapphire however, you'll be damaging the stylus straight away and the more celluloid you play the faster the sapphire will wear.
I've found you only need to play 10-20 celluloid cylinders with a sapphire before the stylus is damaged enough to start skipping grooves or visibly wear the grooves of a wax cylinder.

Bu celluloid cylinders are supposed to be only 4 minutes, am I correct? Or do you refer e.g. to 4-min blue amberols played on a model H or model K repro that have indeed a sapphire stylus?

I heard indeed that some people says those cylinders (blue amberols) shall be played only with the diamond tip reproducers.

Thanks for your help!

There was a few different companies that made celluloid 2M cylinders.
Indestructible, Lambert, Lakeside, US Everlasting, Edison Bell, and even Edison made a Mexican series 2M Blue Amberol.

And yes, personally I only ever use Diamond stylus on celluloid.
A Diamond A, B or C will play both 2 & 4 minute celluloid without doing any damage to the record or diamond.

This was very helpful! Thank you!

Just think of lp stylii... Not comparable, but a lesson can be learned. With 1.5 to 3 grams weight on the stylus only, the sapphire LP stylii last for some 100-150 hours, while a diamond in the same conditions lasts 5 times more....

With all due respect, sapphire styluses used on celluloid should and will last for years and years of play time. I would think if you’re wearing out a stylus in hardly a dozen plays there’s other underlying circumstances affecting wear. I would be interested in seeing proof of how this situation came to be.

Experience over 40 yrs of playing cylinders.
The simple fact is that sapphires were never designed to play celluloid, diamonds were.
You can play celluloid with a sapphire for years, but try playing a wax cylinder afterwards and watch the damage occure.

As for Indigo's comparison of microgroove styli, its a well known fact often stated by stylus manufacturers.

I’ve restored machines for over 40 years, specialize in music box repairs, have a complete machine shop dedicated to restorations and make replica reproducers that are fault free as good as originals.
I’m a licensed tool and die machinist, millwright, industrial production specialist, building plastic injection mold dies, and supply top grade service to the antique phonograph and music box hobbies.

Show me proof. Not trying to be a jerk, prove me wrong, I like to learn from others too.

I’ve asked questions before with folks who think you shouldn’t play electric 1930’s discs on acoustic sound boxes. No one can supply proof. As far as modern stylus go, I’m sure that’s correct, backed by their research teams, products and testing.

I don't have a way to show you proof.
Can you show me proof that it doesn't?