The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Back in July I sold an Edison Opera and a matching Herzog base cabinet to a customer in NY. He received the goods safely and then started complaining about the brake being out of adjustment. I explained the adjustment to him and he refused to attempt it. Then I arranged for Perter Dilg, a knowledgeable old-time collector/dealer, who lives about 20 minutes away, to make a house call and take care of it. He refused this as well, and further refused to take the Opera to Peter for the repair. I also proposed that a local friend could pick everything up at his house and a refund would be given on the spot. Not acceptable to him either.

The customer's total lack of cooperation was very frustrating. First, he filed a credit card charge-back with American Express over the cabinet. He even had said in an email to me that there was nothing wrong with the cabinet, he just didn't want it any longer. He never returned the cabinet to me. I responded to PayPal with all the documentation necessary (proof of delivery, his email, etc.).

In October he returned the Opera to me out of the blue and filed a charge-back with AMEX. It arrived here with some damage due to his poor packing. (The brake adjustment took me less than 30 seconds).

American Express has ruled in his favor and PayPal is debiting my account for the cabinet; the Opera situation is still pending. PayPal says there is nothing they can do, that once a customer says "Item Not As Described" their Seller Protection Program does not apply, regardless of the circumstances. Thus, in essence, a buyer can dispute any purchase, not return the goods, and receive a full refund!

To add insult to injury, PayPal charged me a fee for "representing my interests" in the dispute with AMEX.

I would caution anybody who might have future dealings with this buyer. If anybody wants his name and address, just email me and I'll give it out. I am considering filing a police report as well.

Raphael

Just post his name here if you've got nothing to hide, why otherwise leave it to chance for other prospective sellers?

If he's a devious thief he deserves to have his name placed online where other innocent parties can avoid his future scams.

One thing that puzzles me though is that he has had a refund without sending the item back. As a buyer whenever I've had problems with an item purchased "blind" online, I've always, quite rightly, had to return it with recorded shipping before PayPal has granted me the refund. I'm not aware PayPal has changed its policies in this regard.

I have nothing to hide, please don't throw this back on me as if I am the bad guy here. It is my decision to handle it this way for now due to the ongoing situation. In due course I will publish his name. The buyer is so nasty and obscene that I don't want to post his name publicly, as he may take vindictive action. My starting this thread is to make people aware of PayPal's bizarre policy of not applying the Seller Protection Program at the first mention of "Item Not As Described", whether or not this is a factual statement and could in some circumstances to be purely subjective. PayPal is just taking the easy way out at at the seller's ultimate expense.

I am trying to educate those members of the TMF of this policy as a courtesy, not start a world-wide crusade.

Raphael

You're a very noble man. That purchaser doesn't deserve it, for sure... but I understand your reasons and respect you. Hats off!
But one of the things that life deserves us it's to learn to be patient and support the odd people that sometimes cross our ways... This is part of God's lessons in life... What to do but smile and go to another thing...

Thank you for this post. It has been my observation that many laws/rules/regulations [and, in this case, an online payment platform] are designed for BUYER protection, not the seller. I am seeing this more and more in the modern era - even in Real Estate transactions, lol.

Another example: I tried to sell something on Ebay a while back and they held my funds until the buyer received my item and declared they were satisfied. It was an AS IS sale... didn't matter. Again, buyer protection taken to the extreme.... Just my humble opinion.

Living in 2022, right.....

I’ve had various experiences like this with scammers or people trying to scam me as an eBay seller, and have found that patience and reasonableness will always allow one to come out of it intact.

Rather than play victim, it always works to calmly discuss the facts with eBay staff, escalating until you rise to the level of person who is able to respond beyond reading a script to you while shrugging apologetically. You may have to tell the story several times before you reach that person.

Always take photos and videos of your stuff and packaging before sending. Never lose your temper. Stay consistent and reasonable. I know that this is impossible for some of us, but it is necessary if one wants a positive result.

Cite your long and avid support of eBay over the years. Draw contrast to the length of time your antagonist has been on eBay if that’s less than your own. File your own complaint cases, which forces ebay to track your problem as defined by you, rather than as defined by the scammer.

Stay calm and persistent. Still.

And this is what will happen: they will rule against the scammer and you’ll be made whole. Or they will let the scammer get away with it, and pay you your funds from the ebay coffers. Either way you are made whole and will have nothing to whine about other than, perhaps, the three or so months this took to resolve.

Whether eBay has designed their process to be like this or not doesn’t matter. It’s possible that they bank on people losing patience and giving up.

So just wipe that frown off your face and keep at it, and everything will eventually come up roses.

Was this even an Ebay transaction? Sounds like buyer's remorse but didn't see where this went through Ebay.

blizz

fmblizz wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:17 pm Was this even an Ebay transaction? Sounds like buyer's remorse but didn't see where this went through Ebay.

blizz

I may have confused the issue with the "example" in my post above.... I didn't see a reference to "ebay" in the original post, either. Sorry, lol.

To begin with, his had nothing to do with eBay. After 24 years of eBay sales, which comprise a very small percentage of my overall business, I do not need instructions from PeterF on sales techniques and protocol. Again, I repeat what I said prior, the whole purpose of this thread is to inform the TMF community of a loophole in the system that PayPal is a major part of, their being a financial intermediary and facilitator of payments.

The sale was made directly with the customer using PayPal. He used his AMEX card, paid PayPal and then started issuing complaints: vulgar, threatening and otherwise. That AMEX approved his chargeback without his returning the goods is beyond my comprehension. Then PayPal debited me for the cabinet, for which they say I have no recourse.

Last year I documented on this forum a similar issue that eventually was resolved in my favor. These two comprise the total of my negative experiences of this sort, and this being a forum for sharing information I thought it was appropriate. But first I have somebody inferring that I have something to hide, and another person lecturing me on how to conduct my business - but I was not surprised to see him, of all people, chime in with a condescending and nonsensical post.

Raphael

Raphael wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:41 pm To begin with, his had nothing to do with eBay. After 24 years of eBay sales, which comprise a very small percentage of my overall business, I do not need instructions from PeterF on sales techniques and protocol. Again, I repeat what I said prior, the whole purpose of this thread is to inform the TMF community of a loophole in the system that PayPal is a major part of, their being a financial intermediary and facilitator of payments.

The sale was made directly with the customer using PayPal. He used his AMEX card, paid PayPal and then started issuing complaints: vulgar, threatening and otherwise. That AMEX approved his chargeback without his returning the goods is beyond my comprehension. Then PayPal debited me for the cabinet, for which they say I have no recourse.

Last year I documented on this forum a similar issue that eventually was resolved in my favor. These two comprise the total of my negative experiences of this sort, and this being a forum for sharing information I thought it was appropriate. But first I have somebody inferring that I have something to hide, and another person lecturing me on how to conduct my business - but I was not surprised to see him, of all people, chime in with a condescending and nonsensical post.

Raphael

For the record, I never questioned your innocence or suggested you have something to hide. Like your original post, my post was talking in general to everybody who might benefit from learning about these scenarios. When I say "if you've got nothing to hide" I'm throwing down the gauntlet to anyone in your position and advising to name the person otherwise it can become a futile exercise writing about a bad experience.