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HMV/Victor/Berliner (Canada) 16514-A Sousa's Band Tannhäuser March and 16514-B Sousa's Band La Marseillaise

The music may have been recorded in December of 1909. The record was probably published in 1910 and may have persisted in catalogues until 1920. So exactly when this Canadian record was manufactured, distributed, and sold is uncertain.

Tannhäuser March
La Marseillaise
La Marseillaise has an additional number in the area adjacent to the label.

But Why, Oh Why does La Marseillaise have a label with two Royal Union Flags (as they would legally/officially be called in Canada)? A taunt? The Hundred Years' War isn't really over? Secret plans afoot to reclaim Normandy and Callais, etc? Rule Britannia?


The American disk:

Tannhäuser March

https://archive.org/details/78_tannhaus ... ia0105533a


La Marseillaise

https://archive.org/details/78_la-marse ... ia0105533b

What is on the A side of the Marseillaise? Does it have the same label design?
It could have been used for patriotic reasons during the 1914-1918 War.

epigramophone wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:48 am What is on the A side of the Marseillaise? Does it have the same label design?
It could have been used for patriotic reasons during the 1914-1918 War.

The photos of 16514-A and 16514-B in the OP are the two sides of the same record.

Side A with the Tannhäuser March has the standard style Canadian HMV/Victor/Berliner black label for the period. It is a label with some similarities to the American label of the time.
Side B, however .... as we can see, is quite different--two Royal Union Flags above the French national anthem.

If the label had anything to do with Canadian WWI patriotism, one would think the label would feature the pre-1921 Canadian Red Ensign flag.
Prior to WWI, Britain was somewhat of an isolationist nation. Diplomatic relations with France were not good. Neither were they good with Germany. There were many points of friction over trade and colonial possessions and naval power. Alliances, mutually exclusive ones, were tentatively and half-hardheartedly explored with both France and Germany. If it were not for the megalomania and capricious authoritarianism of Kaiser Wilhelm, England might have been allied with Germany, and WWI might not have happened or might have played out in an entirely different manner. Is the Royal Union label a pre-war taunt?

In Canada, there is also the mostly, but not always, cordial frenemy relationship with Quebec. There was resistance to WWI conscription in Quebec. And there were riots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscript ... is_of_1917

Is the Royal Union label a wartime reminder to Quebec of Britain's (and Canada's) alliance with and defence of France?

I do not know.

It depends, I would think, upon when this particular record was manufactured.

I will have to see if I can consult some CAPS members who might be able to provide a time range for the Berliner Gram-o-phone Company's use of this style of black label.

The 4198 number in the runoff area of the "Marseillaise" side corresponds to the original (single sided) Victor release, mx. B-8525-1 recorded 30 December 1909. The recording was included in the Victor catalog (as catalog number 16514) from November 1910 until January 1920. I personally think it was probably released a little prior to WW1.
I agree it seems an odd label for the particular selection, but very cool nevertheless.

Steve

ChesterCheetah18 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:31 am The 4198 number in the runoff area of the "Marseillaise" side corresponds to the original (single sided) Victor release, mx. B-8525-1 recorded 30 December 1909. The recording was included in the Victor catalog (as catalog number 16514) from November 1910 until January 1920. I personally think it was probably released a little prior to WW1.
I agree it seems an odd label for the particular selection, but very cool nevertheless.

Steve

Very interesting. Thank you.

Lah Ca wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:20 pm

ChesterCheetah18 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:31 am The 4198 number in the runoff area of the "Marseillaise" side corresponds to the original (single sided) Victor release, mx. B-8525-1 recorded 30 December 1909. The recording was included in the Victor catalog (as catalog number 16514) from November 1910 until January 1920. I personally think it was probably released a little prior to WW1.
I agree it seems an odd label for the particular selection, but very cool nevertheless.

Steve

Very interesting. Thank you.

My pleasure. If it were a U.S. label it would be much easier to pin down when that particular pressing was made. Hopefully a helpful CAPS member can fill in the blanks.

Steve

The eyes see but sometimes glaze over with the fine print and the brain does not always register.

Both labels have a date of Oct : 1911 or Oct 1 1911.
So I suspect that decisions were made about which labels to use for the disk and that the labels were printed in 1911, three years prior to WWI.

A most interesting rabbit hole.

"Curiouser and curiouser!" Cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English)."

In the USA, the “patents” label was discontinued at the end of 1913 in favor of the batwing-style label in early 1914. It seems Canada continued using the patents-label for a period of time before adopting the batwing-style.
The screenshots below are of a Canadian pressing I found at the local charity shop of the Caruso and Ruffo duet from Otello, on the patents label with the end date October 1911. It was recorded in January 1914 and released that spring. The earliest stamper US pressings I have seen all have the batwing label.
So it’s entirely possible the copy of the record being discussed in this thread was indeed pressed during the war, but earlier on.
Hope this helps a bit.

By the way, in the closeup you can see part of the artists names and other markings etched on the master showing through the label. US pressings had a larger plate covering the entire center area and thus all the handwritten info on the master is obscured. Interesting.

Steven

Viva-voce wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2023 3:44 pm In the USA, the “patents” label was discontinued at the end of 1913 in favor of the batwing-style label in early 1914. It seems Canada continued using the patents-label for a period of time before adopting the batwing-style.
The screenshots below are of a Canadian pressing I found at the local charity shop of the Caruso and Ruffo duet from Otello, on the patents label with the end date October 1911. It was recorded in January 1914 and released that spring. The earliest stamper US pressings I have seen all have the batwing label.
So it’s entirely possible the copy of the record being discussed in this thread was indeed pressed during the war, but earlier on.
Hope this helps a bit.

By the way, in the closeup you can see part of the artists names and other markings etched on the master showing through the label. US pressings had a larger plate covering the entire center area and thus all the handwritten info on the master is obscured. Interesting.

Steven

Thanks.

So I wonder what the earliest use of the October 1911 patent date was. We know that the music was recorded in 1909 and that the American disks were not issued until 1910. It is impossible that the Canadian record would be issued before 1910, I would think.

Your information and your example record muddy things a bit, albeit in a most interesting way. It would be typical of Canadian frugality to keep using old label stock until it ran out sometime into 1914/15+. And thus perhaps the use of the Royal Union Flag label means absolutely nothing at all, and its juxtaposition with La Marseillaise is entirely accidental.

"We're out of the old black patent label stock. What shall we do?"

"We still have some of the Royal Union Flag stock .... use that."

Yes you may be right about using up old stock labels. My apologies as I didn’t intend to cause any confusion, I just used my example to express that perhaps your record was indeed pressed during the war and that the label reflected wartime sentiment somehow.
Thanks for an interesting post—very timely with Remembrance Day approaching—and it’s always fun to see unusual label variations!

Steven