The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Just out of curiosity, do members have opinions on whether a pin-pivot type needle bar or a knife-edge rocker type is preferable in terms of tuning sound boxes? It seems to me that the former type became more the norm later on, although the latter were, of course, used by Expert, EMG and others. I suppose the fact that Expert and EMG continued to use them is a bit of a clue?

I suspect that with well made, well set up reproducers of the two technologies, most ordinary people would not be able to hear any difference between the two if asked to evaluate them in a proper double blind test using the same gramophone and the same records. But hey ... I could be wrong. I have been wrong many times before.

It was very fashionable in the audiophile world at one time to diss the old SME knife edge pivot tone arms saying they were garbage because the knife edges rattled and corrupted the purity of the sound. I once had an old AR turntable set up with a second arm, an SME. The stock arm had a Stanton 681 . The SME had a Supex 901e, a spectacular moving coil cartridge. My speakers were in a different room from the amps and turntables. I asked someone who was mouthing off about the SME arm (and quite pompously so) to tell me which arm and which cartridge I was using on the same record. The two cartridges had very different properties. But my acquaintance could not reliably distinguish between the two any better than chance.

I would think that a properly executed pin pivot, (such as an Orthophonic would use), might be superior.

JerryVan wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:02 pm I would think that a properly executed pin pivot, (such as an Orthophonic would use), might be superior.

I thought they were on ball bearings ?

JeffR1 wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:14 pm

JerryVan wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:02 pm I would think that a properly executed pin pivot, (such as an Orthophonic would use), might be superior.

I thought they were on ball bearings ?

They are. The pivot pin rides on ball bearings.

Then there's the pivot system of the no4 soundbox (I believe same Victor and HMV) which was again repeated in the 5a/b, the cylindrical pivot point riding on an unique bearing ball (one at each side, actually). This also works very well, although it is a bit tricky to adjust with no side play and at the same time not squeezing the pivot too much.
The Columbia Viva Tonal and the following ones used the ball bearing system, multiple balls encircling the pivot, similar to ortophonic Víctor, although the pivot here was a conical point of a screw, and the housing and balls were at both sides of the needlebar bearings, just the Ortophonic system in reverse.
Another unique style was that of the Meltrope, with the plate squeezed between balls...
Curious!

They must be small ball bearings in the Columbia then!

I have to agree with the comment by Inigo: needlebars with pivot/ball bearings sound remarkably well, but at the expense of their setup, which can be very boring and frustrating (mostly based on repeated trial-and-error cycles) compared to that of a knife-edge rocker where basically nothing can go wrong.