The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Hello,
I present Orchorsol phonograph again, I offered it on UK Trader but no one wanted it there.
If someone would like to buy it cheaper, the price will be lower outside of ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375574615731

P.M. sent

I added a photo of the suitcase to the auction

Yes, you did and thus it sold easily. Well done and congratulations! Hopefully my little nudge assisted! It is a fine example. As you say, the case was practically perfect and that is something I generally look for. Most portables on Ebay have cases in far from great condition and sellers are usually reluctant to share photos that demonstrate this, hence my apprehension when I cannot see the case (as in 99% of Ebay listings for portables). I find this equally frustrating and suspicious but that's life.

I'm interested to note the copper plated external fittings. These should not be black but highly polished copper. The blackness is simply oxidisation. Anyway, someone has got themselves a fine machine.

Steve wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 12:03 pm Yes, you did and thus it sold easily. Well done and congratulations! Hopefully my little nudge assisted! It is a fine example. As you say, the case was practically perfect and that is something I generally look for. Most portables on Ebay have cases in far from great condition and sellers are usually reluctant to share photos that demonstrate this, hence my apprehension when I cannot see the case (as in 99% of Ebay listings for portables). I find this equally frustrating and suspicious but that's life.

I'm interested to note the copper plated external fittings. These should not be black but highly polished copper. The blackness is simply oxidisation. Anyway, someone has got themselves a fine machine.

Very interesting indeed.

When I 'put mine' fully together again I will polish the external fittings and see if there is any copper plate left.

Great 'top-tip' !

Having examined my original untouched example, there are traces of copper visible where the case corners have been rubbed.
I think that the black finish was applied at the factory, as the appearance of untreated copper is known to deteriorate over time.
Although I have yet to try it, I suspect that if I remove a case corner it will reveal that the underside which has been protected from the atmosphere for almost 100 years will be black.

epigramophone wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 1:42 pm Having examined my original untouched example, there are traces of copper visible where the case corners have been rubbed.
I think that the black finish was applied at the factory, as the appearance of untreated copper is known to deteriorate over time.
Although I have yet to try it, I suspect that if I remove a case corner it will reveal that the underside which has been protected from the atmosphere for almost 100 years will be black.

Well, that's saved me a cleaning job !

Thanks as always epigramophone.

Hang on, hang on a minute! Just before you hang up your dusters and polish, consider this, copper plating was incredibly expensive. Why would they copper plate something before painting it black? They could use bare steel and simply paint that instead?

I've seen this debate going on elsewhere online so I examined a Cliftophone I have from France with copper plated fittings. They appeared black but under a powerful magnifying glass I could see that it wasn't an evenly applied coating or finish of black. Black enamel or painted fittings don't simply rub off with a little polish. If anything they shine up! I applied a little polish and rubbed gently with a cloth and the black came off easily so I'm definitely in the "fittings should be highly polished copper" camp.

Even the steel locks are copper plated so that should tell you something.

Steve wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 3:47 pm Hang on, hang on a minute! Just before you hang up your dusters and polish, consider this, copper plating was incredibly expensive. Why would they copper plate something before painting it black? They could use bare steel and simply paint that instead?

I've seen this debate going on elsewhere online so I examined a Cliftophone I have from France with copper plated fittings. They appeared black but under a powerful magnifying glass I could see that it wasn't an evenly applied coating or finish of black. Black enamel or painted fittings don't simply rub off with a little polish. If anything they shine up! I applied a little polish and rubbed gently with a cloth and the black came off easily so I'm definitely in the "fittings should be highly polished copper" camp.

Even the steel locks are copper plated so that should tell you something.

Maybe epigramophone's has different fittings ? It is green after all and perhaps a kind of 'deluxe' version ?

Anyway never mind your 'powerful magnifying glass', to settle this once and for all, I have just started a 'go fund me' page so I can have my fittings looked at by the Titan 80-300 electron microscope at the McMaster University in Canada.

In my turntable and in the ones I see in the photo, the fittings are made of chemically blackened brass. I am a production engineer and I deal with such coatings on a daily basis.
I do not recommend anyone to polish such elements because they will look bad, the best option for restoration is to purchase an amateur oxidizer or have such elements chemically blackened in a professional facility.
As an example, I found this oxidizing fluid:

https://www.caswelleurope.co.uk/flemish ... int-473ml/

Copper plating steel is a very cheap galvanic process, so even if the fittings were steel, coating them with copper, silver or even gold would be cheap, the coatings are microns thick. However, in the case of this turntable, the fittings are made of brass, which blackens very easily. However, the coating is unstable and wears off quickly.

in the example of the crank escutheon you can see the original black finish, where the elements werent in contact with human sweat and friction they are nice, black. coating abrasions are visible in places exposed to friction.