The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auct ... 8b014e77c0

Sold for Euros 240. That's a miserable £200 plus comms for an original HMV horn gramophone. Condition appeared to be good too and it was complete and correct. Or for £25 more, you have a choice of Crapophones on Ebay!

Are there any Irish collectors? It doesn't look like it.

They don't have a clue:
EDISON phonograph:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auct ... 9e00ee9de3

Late 19th century wind up gramophone:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auct ... a301367712

Curt A wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 1:14 pm They don't have a clue:
EDISON phonograph:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auct ... 9e00ee9de3

Late 19th century wind up gramophone:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auct ... a301367712

Yes, agreed, both rather typical examples of incompetent auctioneers' descriptions, from an ever-growing list which is making it impossible to keep up with, but who exactly is "they" referred to in your comment? Neither auctioneer in the two examples quoted is the one in Ireland who sold the HMV No. 5 today.

Steve wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 12:32 pm https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auct ... 8b014e77c0

Sold for Euros 240. That's a miserable £200 plus comms for an original HMV horn gramophone. Condition appeared to be good too and it was complete and correct. Or for £25 more, you have a choice of Crapophones on Ebay!

Are there any Irish collectors? It doesn't look like it.

The price was crazy cheap even with buyer’s premium. The machine looks very original to me although the goose neck is fitted the wrong way. The description didn’t help, HMV not even mentioned in the title or description. I note that once again the auctioneer has chosen not to publish the price of this lot so well done for finding out.

I believe the impact of original horn gramophones is damaged by all the crapophones on the market. People are no longer so impressed with vintage horn machines the way they were 40 years ago. Reproductions often damage the market for original items as now so many people just want the look of something regardless of its originality.

jamiegramo wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 2:16 pm

Steve wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 12:32 pm https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auct ... 8b014e77c0

Sold for Euros 240. That's a miserable £200 plus comms for an original HMV horn gramophone. Condition appeared to be good too and it was complete and correct. Or for £25 more, you have a choice of Crapophones on Ebay!

Are there any Irish collectors? It doesn't look like it.

The price was crazy cheap even with buyer’s premium. The machine looks very original to me although the goose neck is fitted the wrong way. The description didn’t help, HMV not even mentioned in the title or description. I note that once again the auctioneer has chosen not to publish the price of this lot so well done for finding out.

I believe the impact of original horn gramophones is damaged by all the crapophones on the market. People are no longer so impressed with vintage horn machines the way they were 40 years ago. Reproductions often damage the market for original items as now so many people just want the look of something regardless of its originality.

Thank you, Jamie, for adding the picture. Yes, I'm glad at least you agree with me. It was stupidly cheap. Even if they had charged £100 for shipping on top of their commission and then UK Port Authorities charged 20% VAT incorrectly on both item and shipping, it still works out only £440 in total. It might be possible to claw 15% VAT back via an online claim to UK HMRC after that but even at £440 it's no money for it.

But are there no collectors in Ireland? Maybe not. I don't think I've ever met an Irish gramophone collector yet!

Steve wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 3:04 pm Thank you, Jamie, for adding the picture. Yes, I'm glad at least you agree with me. It was stupidly cheap. Even if they had charged £100 for shipping on top of their commission and then UK Port Authorities charged 20% VAT incorrectly on both item and shipping, it still works out only £440 in total. It might be possible to claw 15% VAT back via an online claim to UK HMRC after that but even at £440 it's no money for it.

But are there no collectors in Ireland? Maybe not. I don't think I've ever met an Irish gramophone collector yet!

Steve I was somewhat fascinated about getting the VAT back? On what basis could you make a claim?

Is it antiques over a 100 years?

jamiegramo wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 12:21 pm

Steve wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 3:04 pm Thank you, Jamie, for adding the picture. Yes, I'm glad at least you agree with me. It was stupidly cheap. Even if they had charged £100 for shipping on top of their commission and then UK Port Authorities charged 20% VAT incorrectly on both item and shipping, it still works out only £440 in total. It might be possible to claw 15% VAT back via an online claim to UK HMRC after that but even at £440 it's no money for it.

But are there no collectors in Ireland? Maybe not. I don't think I've ever met an Irish gramophone collector yet!

Steve I was somewhat fascinated about getting the VAT back? On what basis could you make a claim?

Is it antiques over a 100 years?

Yes. Antiques, certified at least 100 years old by definition, are rated at 5% for the purposes of import VAT. I've made many successful claims against HMRC when port authorities have charged me 20% flat rate VAT on imported gramophones. I have received a reimbursement equivalent to 15% VAT.

Steve wrote: Fri Mar 21, 2025 3:26 am Yes. Antiques, certified at least 100 years old by definition, are rated at 5% for the purposes of import VAT. I've made many successful claims against HMRC when port authorities have charged me 20% flat rate VAT on imported gramophones. I have received a reimbursement equivalent to 15% VAT.

Presumably it’s not so easy when buying from eBay in Europe where the VAT is added at payment. I just bought an item from France and I’m not sure how I would prove it was a 100 years old.

jamiegramo wrote: Fri Mar 21, 2025 5:54 am

Steve wrote: Fri Mar 21, 2025 3:26 am Yes. Antiques, certified at least 100 years old by definition, are rated at 5% for the purposes of import VAT. I've made many successful claims against HMRC when port authorities have charged me 20% flat rate VAT on imported gramophones. I have received a reimbursement equivalent to 15% VAT.

Presumably it’s not so easy when buying from eBay in Europe where the VAT is added at payment. I just bought an item from France and I’m not sure how I would prove it was a 100 years old.

Can you find another example online of whatever it is that might indicate its age? I bought a Pathéphone Modele D from France two years ago but then sent a scanned copy of the 1906 Pathé catalogue with my claim, clearly highlighting the machine in a catalogue indicating its age. They accepted that.

BTW, if VAT is added by Ebay at checkout, you can claim the additional 20% back from HMRC as there is no legal right for any organisation to charge you 40% VAT currently! Just send a copy of the listing showing the NET amount charged together with the checkout final invoice showing the gross including VAT that Ebay has added. HMRC cannot legitimately argue with this. It is in fact incumbent upon Ebay to provide a code indicating the charge paid and therefore its fault if the pre-paid / printed labels issued by them do not include a tax code to confirm to Port Authorities that VAT has already been paid! There should be something hidden in the barcode and address label which when scanned shows this.

If you're worried about proving the original price, net of VAT, simply request from the seller a confirmation of the final price (as it appears on their screens). I've done this before and some sellers think I've lost my marbles, but it's not until I've shown them my 600 Euros checkout invoice for a 500 Euros item, that they begin to understand what I'm getting it.

Steve wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 12:32 pm Are there any Irish collectors? It doesn't look like it.

There are a few serious Irish collectors, but they tend to keep a low profile. One charming gentleman known to me and to others on this forum has a collection of EMG and Expert machines, which I believe includes one of Graham's EMG Xb Oversize re-creations.