The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Do you think the antique phonograph hobby is lost on people age 12 - 18? What about people age 20 - 30? What do you think is causing this?

I feel that affordability is the central issue in passing the hobby on.

When I was born, both "The Compleat [sic] Talking Machine" and "Look for the Dog" had already been written. Collectors clubs had been organized for phonographs, telephones, depression glass, and a million other things. "Market Prices" were beginning to be established because of these clubs.

Because of market prices, I cut my teeth on inside-horn machines and now prefer them. Now as an adult with a career, I don't have a desire to own an Edison Cygnet that sells for $2,200. In fact, the appeal of collecting lately has been in finding nice Victor machines like the Credenza ($300, Craigslist), Revere, 330, 230, XVII, and a couple of neat Electrolas, 7-26 and RE-75. All of these machines were *very* affordable and I enjoy them a great deal.

For the sake of comparison, classic cars from the early 20th century have come down sharply in value since the 1970s - 1980s and now muscle cars of the 1960s and 1970s are commanding more money. People don't associate with the early 20th century any more as much as they did then, when it wasn't as distant and Hollywood made a lot of movies about that era. So too will the prices of our collections decline as the rest of the population doesn't understand our obsession with the Victorian era through the Roaring Twenties.

I think what will drive this hobby is the same as what has always driven it: supply and demand. I argue that supply has increased and will continue to increase. The baby boomers are looking to downsize, and oftentimes they have phonographs and Victrolas that they inherited from their largely dead or dying parents. According to market reports, this phenomenon is overloading the secondhand market. This makes sense - in the past few years, incredible stuff has come out of the woodwork. Yet, since Americans have so much stuff, and often aren't in a position to purchase more, I believe that overall demand is either static or marginally increasing, and thus prices of most antiques are in a general decline if you account for inflation. Phonographs are now exception. Of course, the truly rare will always bring good money, because a glut will help market watchers identify what is truly rare.

With supply accounted for, let's go back to demand, which is infinitely more complicated. We have to remember that demand isn't just made up of us collectors, but also individuals in the economy as a whole. There are literally thousands of households in the country with just one phonograph and a small collection of records. There are also lots of people who would also like just one phonograph and a small collection of records. Serious collectors are a small community that work with and compete against the general population as a whole. What motivates us and enables us to buy? It's an interrelated combination of three primary things: money, interest, and free space. How you want to break those factors down - that's up to the individual.

With overall demand accounted for, let's move onto several specific points that factor into demand.

If you are of speaking of sentimentality as a motivation and interest for the hobby - for the younger generation it doesn't exist. The people who owned and used these machines are either dead, dying, or extremely old. Their children are largely in the same position. The era of the acoustic phonograph is well behind us, ending in the early 1930s. I think it's very hard to make a case that the generational aspect of the car hobby could apply to the phonograph hobby as well for that reason.

Affordability will always play a role in the hobby. Most phonographs are not cheap, and I'll argue that those phonographs that are cheap just aren't worth having to the average collector. However, I will also make the case that affordability isn't the sole factor that determines the course of the hobby. Rather, it is our personal interests.

I remember being in 5th-6th grade and being absolutely fascinated by these early sound reproduction devices. I would have loved to have one, but neither I or my parents could afford it. Then, and now, a couple hundred dollars is a lot of money. What did I do? I saved my change and bought a cheap little Columbia D-2. I fixed it, enjoyed it for a while, and resold it. With some serious learning, diligent searching, honest work, and great luck, I have done that with numerous other phonographs. I now have several phonographs that I couldn't have dreamed having even 5 years ago. Sure, it takes money to make a little to pursue your own ends in this regard, but it can be done. Whether this is the right thing to do - that's another story. The morals and ethics of collecting are a subject for another thread.

What you're addressing is market research (in this case, the "antique phonograph market"), and the forces that affect the market are far more complex than what you describe. Without becoming mired in individual or group psychology, keep in mind that People Collect For Many Different Reasons. These include (but are not limited to) novelty, prestige, historical interest, visual aesthetic, aural aesthetic, mechanical interest, personal experience, nostalgia, cost, space, investment, and self-affirmation. Most collectors do so because of a combination of these motivations - not just one.

You stated that "affordability is the central issue in passing the hobby on." What's "affordable" to one person may not be to another, but bear in mind that in the antique phonograph market, it's the high-end articles that continue to do well in recent years. There are a good number of phonograph collectors who are willing and able to drop tens of thousands of dollars in pursuit of desired items. If by "affordability" you mean affordable to young people, then naturally the young newcomer will probably begin with a Victrola XI or other similarly available and low-cost machine. That's how I started 44 years ago. I scrimped and saved my lawn-mowing earnings for months to buy my first Edison Standard for $75 in early 1968. I assert that a $75 expenditure back then was more than a $350 expenditure now, and Edison Standards can certainly be found for $350 today. So where's the lack of affordability? A 12-30 year old can drop $350 at a mall without breaking a sweat. I maintain the problem (if it can be called a problem) is lack of interest.

Beginning in the 1920s, there was a recurrent popularity in the U.S. of what became euphemistically known as "Early American." This encompassed not only reproductions of 18th and 19th century furniture styles, but antiques in general. If you peruse old copies of Hobbies magazine from the 1940s-1970s, you'll find that price guides (albeit informal ones) existed for old phonographs even back then - far ahead of collector clubs. This came as a revelation to me in 1968 when I discovered a stack of these magazines in an antique shop. Until then, I really believed that I was the only collector of antique phonographs. And that illustrates divergent collecting motives: until sputtering out in the 1980s, there was widespread interest (in the U.S. anyway) in antiques. Lots of people - - admittedly most of them dilettantes - - decorated their homes with antiques throughout this period. Young couples would push baby strollers through antique shops, and malls often hosted large antique shows. This social environment made a perfect petri dish for the sprouting of hard-core collectors. That environment no longer exists, but there's nothing to prevent it from coming back someday. When it does, you'll see renewed interest in all antiques, and young people will be buying up Victrolas and Edison Standards for their homes. Meanwhile, diehards (like you and me) will continue our pursuit.

The observation you made about car values reflects the "personal experience" I alluded to above. Electric trains went through (and continue to experience) a general decline as the "train generations" age and die. Yet, just try to find a pre-WWI Lionel or Ives wide-gauge set that won't require a 2nd mortgage on the house. No one remembers playing with thin-rim Lionel #5, #6 or #7 engines as a kid anymore. Personal experience is no longer the draw - other market forces have supplanted that. The same will happen with post-WWII Lionel Santa Fe F3s...someday. My point is that personal experience plays no part in collecting 18th and 19th century firearms, Ming ceramics, musical pocket watches, or Paleolithic artifacts. The aging of the world's population does not spell the end of phonograph and record collecting.

The elephant in the room that I have not addressed is your concern about "passing the hobby on" and "the prices of our collections [will] decline as the rest of the population doesn't understand our obsession with the Victorian era through the Roaring Twenties." Obviously, we'd all like other people to value our collections as highly as we do. Ultimately, I'd like my family to realize a nice inheritance from the sale of my collection (about 50 years from now! ). But as I mentioned earlier, I started out thinking I was alone in my fascination for these things, and if no one wants my collection when it's time to dispose of it, I won't be devastated. It has served me well, and my family won't need the proceeds to put food on the table. I never collected for investment purposes, and always advised others to "buy what you like." Investments can be risky. Buying for your own enjoyment is far more attractive to me.

As for "passing the hobby on," I long ago gave up on trying to "show others the light." It's like riding a Harley: either you get it or you don't. Collecting for me is personal. People Collect For Many Different Reasons, and viewing a collection can sometimes open a window into the soul of the collector. I personally don't care if no one else is collecting phonographs 50 years from now. But how likely is that to happen? People will always have needs, and for some, collecting antique phonographs and records will fulfill those needs. The hobby will live for those who enjoy it. Beyond that, it's simply investing - - and I have no interest in advising people how to invest money. But if their hearts are in it, the job's already done.

George P.

I have a good friend of mine who has a 13 year old son who is now collecting these great machines. I have bought him a few machines to get his collection started. He knows how to work on them and i have shown him how to rebuild reproducers Ect...
He is a very good kid. We need to spread the word on these great machines to our kids and young people. Because whats going to happen after we are all gone?
Myself i am saving my whole record and machine collection of 20 years for my daughter. She is only 3 but she enjoys listening to them and likes to watch them work, and crank them up. Thats the first step is to show them the basics.
Just like player pianos,
What i think we all should do is organize some sort of town meeting or event where you live, get fellow collectors together and display your machines and advertise to have kids come for free and see them.
I bet 80% of kids have no idea what these things even are, but ask my 3 year old and she can tell you every machine i own.
We do need to keep the hobby going because after us, thats it.

Valid points, Garret!

George P.

I'm not saying it's going to make any sort of full-on mainstream comeback... but the jump in vinyl sales could help our hobby.

Nielsen SoundScan says vinyl LP albums had sales of 2.8 million in 2010 — the biggest jump of any musical format last year.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/enterta ... riaa-.html

I did not start collecting because of child memories, my earliest music experiences were more radio related. When I was a teenager even the 45s were on the decline, when I finally had money as an adult, LPs were making place for CDs and video. Still, I found my fascination later with shellack disks and crank up phonographs.
My oldest son in his mid twenties thinks it's great that I have this hobby, but would never have any interest in it. He might use a phonograph as decoration, if at all. My daughter likes my collection, we played the wedding march for her last year on my VV-50, but she would not want my stuff either. My youngest son is interested in history and generally likes old things. He recently took the VV-50 to school as prop for his presentation about the beginning of recorded sound. He might take one or two old machines and a few records some day, but he does not show any signs of collector bug yet
So my take out of all that is that I am collecting for myself what I like, not for anyone else and definitely not for the money. While I like showing my machines and records to people, I don't think this is necessary to keep the hobby alive. Many people have fun collecting things, and some people like old phonographs and/or old music. If those two things combine within a person then chances are good that a new collector is born. If not then no outside force will make a collector.
Just my 2c
Andreas

What a complex topic! I have spent a lot of time thinking about this same topic-not just for my hobby but for my profession as well. As an art restorer I do work for galleries, museums, and retail clients as well-and have a retail custom picture framing and art shop. The retail shop has done poorly the last 3 years or so and it really reflects what is going on in the economy. People do not need picture frames and art to live. Nor do they need antique phonographs or antiques of any kind.

Add to that fact that the newest generation does not seem to need, want, or admire collectibles or things of the past. They seem to do with less and in most cases they will not make the same kinds of income that the last 2 or 3 generations have made. They also live in a period of time that does not create consumer confidence-just look at that ol' consumer confidence and it tells its own story.

But while the retail side is down my restoration work has exploded and it is coming in from all 3 past generations and the key words are "it means something to me" and perhaps that's the point with this newest generation. If it does not have value to "THEM" they are not interested in it. I have a close friend who deals in the field of the impact of social networks from a clinical standpoint and the feelings in his profession is that we currently have the most isolated, self centered, and least encumbered group of young people to come along since the 20's and they have a social networking pattern that in many cases eliminates the actual physical interaction of individuals and have replaced that with eletronic interaction.
Because of this he feels as do many of his associates that many of todays youth do not form attachments with objects of the past-in most cases

This is true of the vintage car market and money is diffidently part of the story here. An entry vintage car is going to cost far more than an entry antique phonograph. In fact my own story follows the 1 machine story described earlier and when I found I was having fun...well the collector bug has been in place my whole life and I blame my dad. And for me while I have had some expensive collector cars I enjoy some pretty inexpensive machines and the music I can play on them. The records and cylinders are the limiting factor and a more expensive machine really will not make them sound much better

My feeling is that there will always be those that collect, and those that like history and that this element to life has a cycle like the economy or the tide. As people leave the hobby others will take up the banner there just may not be as many of them...

Abe

Interesting topic. I'm 20, and I would dearly love to buy some more gramophones as I only have a Columbia portable at the moment.

The main thing limiting me is lack of space, and I would fear for it being damaged by drunk housemates. The student lifestyle doesn't lend itself well to protection of fragile antiques!

Some of the posts below are right though - many gramophones are too expensive for a student like myself, I stick to buying 78's instead. I think also that the decline in practical teaching at school means that if people do buy these things, they have no idea how to fix it as they weren't taught manufacturing skills.

I'd say its the money. Im 27 and have been collecting for a long time, but I don't have many machines. I have to sell them occasionally. However, I will say, where there is a will....
If you really like the hobby you will find phonographs, and you will find cheap phonographs. The best thing I found was a victor V on EBAY for $75 buy it now... or the other victor V that I found with speartip horn for $1500... So you just need to be diligent and keep your eyes open. I buy and sell machines to keep the hobby up. I can't justify spending a paycheck on a machine, (or my student loan...) so I buy and sell to keep every 5th or 6th machine. I can't help but think living in general is harder and more expensive then when my parents were my age. You need a good phone, a computer, maybe a car if you don't live in NYC like I do, insurance is expensive, internet bill, the cost of food has got to be higher... Am I wrong? I think the reason younger people don't get into the hobby is purely financial. If you have extra income your not likely to buy a phonograph over say, a million other more "practical" life upgrades first. You really have to be dedicated to the hobby to seek out machines.

You old timers should sell cheaper! Why not? I would keep an Opera in great shape, it would last another 50 years...I would spread the word to people who come over, and then it would go on to someone else who is really interested. Instead these things go through sticky fingers, get parted out, end up as decor items. And we have all seen those horrible hanging lamps made out of morning glory horns! gasp! And I know some of you out there bought those dang Operas for pennies back in the day!

Send me a PM if you would like to send me a complimentary phonograph. Thanks.