The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Would you be able to theoretically be able to build a counterweight the reproducer on a mechanical/windup phono so you could safely play 40s and 50s 78s. I always see people advising against it because the weight of the reproducer with the needle digs into the record. I tried this once with a random junk 50s 78 and saw a thick black tar on the steel needle after playing. Thoughts?

I think it likely that soundboxes and electrical pickups were designed to track at their original forces. Reducing significantly might lead to the needle 'chattering' in the groove and causing more damage, rather than less wear. Just an intuitive view.

Ah. I remember seeing a VV-IV with a counterweight with some later 78s. It sounded really really bad.

In theory, possibly, but there are a number of factors to consider.

First of all, the groove of a typical 78 rpm record is much wider than the groove of an LP or 45 rpm record. Standard 78 rpm grooves are about 0.006 to 0.008 inches (roughly 152 to 203 microns) wide, whereas the "microgroove" standard used for LPs and 45s is typically around 0.001 to 0.0014 inches (25 to 36 microns) wide. A non-abrasive special ultra-fine jewel tip stylus would be required.

Second, while reducing the up and down "weight" of the reproducer, or sound box, a counter-weight does not reduce the "sideways" mass of the tonearm/reproducer, so there would be extra wear caused by the sideways tracking force.

Third, the overall mass of the needle-bar/diaphragm would have to be greatly reduced to reduce wear caused by the resistance to following the back and forth movement of the groove for a monaural recording. In the case of a stereo recording--which applies to most LPs and 45s found today--the stylus/needle bar assembly would have to be designed to track the groove laterally as well as vertically.

The diaphragm, itself, would also have to be reconfigured and some ultra fine material would have to be used in order to be sensitive enough to respond to the minute movement of the stylus. Most likely, a special exponential horn (including the tonearm) would have to be designed to amplify the sound waves enough for normal listening.

I can think of only one acoustically amplified (battery powered turntable) phonograph that did not rely on electrical amplification and was specifically designed to play 45 rpm vinyl records. That was the "Close-N-Play" toy phonograph which sold during the late 1960s-early 1970s, which you can Google. It was okay for kids, but it sounded tinny at best and wore out records very quickly. I never owned one, but listened to some played by friends. Even as a kid, I thought it sounded like crap compared to a "real" record player.

All that having been said, there actually were acoustic phonographs that claimed to play all speeds sold well into the 1970s/early 1980s, such as this one from the 1974 Montgomery Ward Christmas catalog: (From -- https://christmas.musetechnical.com/ )

I actually bought one of these, early in the 1980s (a two speed--45/LP--version from Woolworth's) when I started collecting wind-up portable phonographs, just to see how it compared with the vintage wind-up models. As stated in the phonograph's instructions, it was for monaural records only. I test played a few few early 45s and a few monaural LPs. The sound quality was BAD--barely audible and high pitched. (VIDEO of one in action -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFvNGVNd4mA )

This was probably due to the fact that there was no internal horn; the sound was sent from the base of the tonearm into the motor compartment which then "leaked out" through the air holes. In addition, on one of the LP records I test played, a black curly string of vinyl was peeled off by the stylus. If I remember right, I took it back to Woolworth's and got my money back.

HTH,
OrthoFan