The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I will be over in Paris for a good part of August. I am curious if anyone has advice about where to hunt for some machines while there? Any phonograph highlights I should see? I have heard of the Phonogalerie. Best flea markets?

The Phonogalerie is a great place to visit. Lots of phonographs to look at. He did not have the museum open when we were there. The ones he had for sale were a little pricey when you added shipping. Took a lot of phongraph pictures. Moulin Rouge not to far away. Learn the subway system, best way to get around town. Did not have time to try any flea markets. We stayed a few blocks from Rue St. Claire where all the food and wine markets are. We were there for our 45th and hope to go back for our 50th. We have been there twice and there is still a lot to see. With a month you will have time to see alot and enjoy. I'm envious.

The main flea market ("Marché aux Puces") is just north of the Porte de Clignancourt. You can take the metro to the end of the line and walk several blocks through a very active bazaar of cheap modern clothing and other geegaws to get to the marché. Keep your wallet in your front pocket -- pickpockets are rampant in the area you have to pass through. But you don't need to worry about being assaulted or mugged, it's way too busy. The market is huge, and consists of permanent buildings along narrow alleyways. There's a ton of stuff to see but bargains are rare (though they do occur -- I got a small Grenet cell there a few years ago for less than $50). Years ago there were a couple of phonograph dealers in the market but they've been gone for some time. There is at least one specialist in scientific instruments who comes up with fun stuff, and you never know what you may stumble upon. Don't bother rushing to get there early like at US flea markets; most places don't open until around 10 on Sunday. It's great fun and I never miss it whenever I get to Paris.

Phonogalerie is now only open by appointment. You can contact Jalal Aro at [email protected]. Prices generally aren't cheap but he has some great stuff. Last time I went, just over a year ago, I had no intention of buying anything. Then I saw this gorgeous mahogany Berliner with original copper horn (documented in the original French catalogs). I couldn't leave it behind:



So never say never! Alas, the exchange rate currently is brutal and that definitely has an impact. Everything is automatically over 50% more expensive than when the Euro first went into effect in 2002. Then the exchange was about 92c; now it's pushing $1.50.

In years past there were a couple of other stores in the city but they are gone now. As far as I know, Phonogalerie is the only one that remains. If you like radios there's a tiny shop on the Rue de Vaugirard with some early things; they occasionally have a phonograph or two. It's just next door to an antique photography shop at 16, Rue de Vaugirard.

Although they're obviously not for sale, there are some phonographs in the Musée des Arts et Métiers, including a Hardy and a Pathé Céleste. Or at least they were on display a few years ago.

If you want to take a fairly long drive (about two hours if I remember correctly) there's a phonograph museum in the town of St. Fargeau: le Musée de l'aventure du son (http://www.aventureduson.fr/). Worth a detour.

Alas, you'll find a lot of places closed in August. That's traditionally vacation month in France and everyone heads to the south to get out of town.

Wow Rene - what a beautiful and unusual machine.

Did you ship it or carry it back home?

Shipped home. Today it's really tough bringing anything on a plane unless it fits in a carry-on and is very benign. I once had to leave a security line in Orlando and go check a bag because TSA wouldn't let me carry a small advertising piece on the plane, claiming it could be used as a weapon. Utter stupidity.

Shipping anything in checked baggage is risky because they do open and inspect many bags, and they don't know how to repack. I once brought a hand-wind Berliner home from Union. I carried the horn and reproducer onto the plane, but the baseboard and turntable were very carefully packed. When I got back I found the turntable shaft, which is pointed, had punched a hole though my laptop because the TSA idiots just tossed everything together without the slightest concern for how carefully I had arranged everything. Today I'd rather just pay Fedex to deliver it to me. In the long run it's cheaper.

There are not many nice machines left in Europe. Anything of worth has been sold to the Far East. What you will find is a load of crapophones and maybe the odd portable. You could find some nice records though on the different flea markets on Sunday. Including a lot of jazz recorded in the late '30s by black Americans who came to Europe because we had a far more open mind about coloured people. Anything recorded on the 'Swing' label is worth buying, I've never seen one that wasn't good. And they are laminated pressings, so even if they are grey, they will still play OK.
As regards to portables, buy only the best. HMV, Pathé, or Electrola. Or try to find a nice Pathé vertical machine. They may look primitive, but they will sound marvelous. Not as loud as your Victrola, we Europeans liked our music a little bit more backgroundy, but well worth buying.

TinfoilPhono wrote:Prices generally aren't cheap but he has some great stuff.

They not only sell real expensive, but they push purchase prices. Three or four Belgian and French collectors/dealers raised the price level in, especially French and German, phonograph auctions significantly in the last two years for rare pieces. This is very unfortunate for average wage earners.

Rene

Serious congratulations on the purchase of what must be one of the ultimate Berliner machines on sale anywhere at anytime! That is awesome and yes, I am jealous!

I do think some collectors are a bit short-sighted about the prices Phonogalerie charge for their machines. I have bought several machines from them remotely and Jalal has sent them to me extremely safely and very carefully packaged. Compared to examples on Ebay what I have bought has not been all that pricey, when you take into account condition. To me, condition is key and cannot be ignored or overlooked. If you want the best, you have to pay for it. Most of the time the other dealers who might 'complain' about a trader's high asking prices, haven't usually got the same items in comparable condition. I tried to explain this concept to an auctioneer recently who was reluctant to send me decent pictures of a machine for sale. When i explained the condition could possible make a difference in my bid of anything between ??500-750 ($800-1200), I got his attention, especially considering the item was only estimated at between ??150-200 in the first instance!

But back to your machine. Quite apart from it being in typical Phonogalerie condition, it has a copper horn and a MAHOGANY case. That is rarer than hen's teeth. Whatever it cost you it wasn't enough.

Enjoy!

Steve

What I noticed when I just recently started reading through German forums, it seems that they have a very different stance regarding originality of machines. It seems perfectly acceptable to have an "incorrect" motor in an outside horn gramophone, as longs as it's well done and is working well. The cause may be that there are so few machines and parts left on the market, I don't know. Just struck me as very different from the US where even an incorrect model year of a reproducer or horn is immediately pointed out. That's why I gave up looking at eBay.de really quickly. Every nice horn machine has some cobbled together internals. Not sure if France is the same, just would suggest to look really close.
Andreas

alang wrote:What I noticed when I just recently started reading through German forums, it seems that they have a very different stance regarding originality of machines. It seems perfectly acceptable to have an "incorrect" motor in an outside horn gramophone, as longs as it's well done and is working well. The cause may be that there are so few machines and parts left on the market, I don't know.

You are right that there are many more "incorrect" outside horn gramophones than machines in original condition. We have so many models and manufacturers, and most of these are still undocumented. Research would be much easier if we were limited to the model range of pre-WW1 Columbia, Pathé and Victor machines.

Don't be mislead by your first impression. While the casual German buyer attaches more value to function and nice appearance, serious collectors know their stuff and hoard large numbers of spares to complete "incorrect" machines.

Personally, I avoid expensive and time consuming detours. I concentrated on a few early Deutsche Grammophon AG models which are very well documented. Those I have in my collection are original down to the last screw.