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More questions about off-brand machines = Would one consider the following to be "off-brand" = Brunswick, Sonora, Silvertone, and Pathé? From what I have been reading, Victor, Edison, and Columbia were considered to be "the brands" in the USA. Yet there are a lot of these "other" machines out there, especially the Brunswick & Silvertone consoles..... Brian

briankeith wrote: Would one consider the following to be "off-brand" = Brunswick, Sonora, Silvertone, and Pathé?

Although these brands weren't cheaper or much worse, I would still consider Brunswick, Sonora and Silvertone to be "off-brand", because they are not only lesser known but contributed comparatively little to the development of the talking machine. After my personal opinion, these off-brands have much less appeal than the traditional big three.

Pathé is a completely different case. From early on this company was innovative. It even had the monopoly in France, the third largest market in Europe, successfully fighting the Gramophone Co., Edison and Columbia.

In most European countries Pathé was easily as succesful AND influential as the Gramophone company. Edison and Columbia were much smaller players over here.
So in my opinion Pathé should really one of the major brands.
And maybe Brunswick and Sonora should be elevated to premium status, together with English Decca, in the off-brand category. After all, all three had their own special quite different approach. Brunswick with the first really compatible soundbox, Sonora with its unique wooden tone-arm and Decca with the first truly succesful portable gramophone.
All other companies more or less built clones of what had been done before and in most cases much better.

I guess it depends on your definition of "off brand." Off brand, to me at least, does not necessarily mean small market share. Various dictionaries use definitions like "not identified with a major brand name;" or "not sold or made under a particular brand name."

I tend to consider the phonographs (or gramophones) made with generic components and that have unfamiliar names as off brands.

I would certainly not consider Sonora, Brunswick, Pathé or Decca as off-brands. Not as interesting to collectors in the USA as the big 3, but not off brands.

Silvertone is kind of a special case. Certainly a well-known brand name in the USA (Sears and Roebuck) but generally not highly thought of. They were supplied by various vendors over the years. Perhaps not an "off brand" by definition, but typically less desirable than one of the big 3.

This is my 2 cents worth. You are welcome to your own interpretation of the term.

I must agree with AZ. In 1921, Brunswick's sales passed Edison's, so one's definition of "big three" is subject to timeframe.

George P.

syncopeter wrote: Sonora with its unique wooden tone-arm

Not sure I'd call Sonoras wooden tonearms unique either. There were both internal & external horn machines with wooden tonearms coming out of Germany (& I think Switzerland) that as far as I'm aware predate Sonoras 1914 introduction. Apart from the tonearm, Sonora used pretty generic parts made by Paillards of Switzerland.

gramophoneshane wrote:

syncopeter wrote: Sonora with its unique wooden tone-arm

Not sure I'd call Sonoras wooden tonearms unique either. There were both internal & external horn machines with wooden tonearms coming out of Germany

This is correct, a German company from Strausberg near Berlin exhibited external horn gramophones with wooden tonearms and sound boxes at the Leipzig autumn trade fair in 1907. Acknowleding the great effort, the trade press at the time found the acoustic effect negligible.

One of my biggest regrets is parting with my Brunswick phonograph. It had an Ultona reproducer which can play multiple format record with just a twist or turn. The best 3-way Ultona could play standard 78's, Edison Diamond Discs and Pathé records. Although some other Ultona's only a 2 out of 3 combination. Most Brunswick machines I've seen with internal horns were made of wood. I loved the way my Brunswick sounded on either record format.

I am in agreement with AZ too. For me, the offbrands are the ones that came out in great numbers after the big guys patents had expired. Usually oak, and even the best model offered is not very interesting compared to a mid-range machine offered by one of the big companies. These are usually not easy to repair if inoperable.

I guess Silvertone is about as close to an offbrand of the four mentioned in the opening post, but if one of these came along, would you turn it away compared to, say, a nice Victrola XI?
I borrowed this pic from Mr. Victor's web page, he shows a number of other "offbrands" I'd love to find at a neighborhood garage sale.

Steve

The Silvertone machines I've seen use straight brass tone arms with no taper. They were excellent value for the money when new and the high end machines can be very handsome with gold plate hardware and purple velvet turntables.