The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

It's been a while since I have posted here! I'm encountering a strange phenomenon and I wonder if it is familiar to anyone here.

I bought a batch of around 30 78rpm jazz & pop records. Very cheap, thank goodness. It's good stuff....this guy's grandfather had great taste. There's a Dial label Charlie Parker, a Dizzy Gillespie, some 50's rock n roll (A Coasters 78, which is probably a non-shellac pressing, etc). A double-sided Louis Jordan record, "Saturday Night Fish Fry, pts 1 & 2." And a bunch of other 1930's & 40s swing big band stuff.

All of the records were kind of trashed, which I understood when I bought them. I cleaned them using a record vacuum unit and an archival fluid.

Here's the weirdness: One side of each record plays more or less fine. Scratchy, noisy, but fine. The other side of EACH record, usually the B side, is almost unlistenable. Crazy amounts of noise, getting worse towards the end. I can't stock it up to one side being "enjoyed" more than the other, because the two part Louis Jordan record has this problem too, in the second half.

And, here's the kicker: I tried playing the Louis Jordan record on my HMV 102. (Something I would not do if it was a record in pristine condition.) The second side WILL NOT PLAY. The needle drags the record to a halt, and the turntable only spins again when I pick up the arm. So I tried something else, which, again, I would not do if it was in decent condition: I sprayed Pledge on it, and it played fine. The friction problem went away. (I am open to better/safer lubricants....do tell.)

I have a couple theories:

1) The records were stored horizontally in a damp place for years, and were attacked by some sort of mold that only clings to the tops of things, or the bottoms of things.

2) The records were in a jukebox at some point in their past. The stylus that played one side was trashed and the stylus that played the other side was not. The nature of the trashing created a surface so rough that a steel needle gets caught on it.

Thoughts?

I vote for the jukebox. Until about 1948, 78 machines could only play one side of a record, which if a stylus was trashed would cause single-sided damage.

Thanks. Then, followup questions:

a) Did later 78 jukeboxes have a separate stylus for each side? Or did they flip the records (or reproducer) before playing the other side? The choice of "played side" seems strange in some cases.

b) Can 78 groove wear ever result in a windup machine having trouble turning the record? What would cause friction between a steel needle and a groove to be greater than the force of a spring? (They only other time I've seen such a thing was when I tried to play a material that was too soft, like an acetate.)

Question b.: definitely. I had several records that wouldn't play on my portable, played with some effort on my double spring table model and without problems aon my modern record player.

Question a.: I don't know, but quite probably. There were so many brands and models. The hypothesis seems rather feasible though, because most records are later era and may well have come from a jukebox.

There is a 1947 or 48 patent on a 78 changer mechanism for jukeboxes that flips the record so only one tonearm/stylus would be necessary, although I do seem to recall some machines that had two tonearms; one for the A side and one for the B side so this would be another possibility.

There is a 1947 or 48 patent for a changer mechanism that actually flips the record for 78RPM jukes. Although I do seem to recall some machines that had two tonearms, one for the A side and one for the B side. The early machines, though, only played the side of the record that was put in the stack facing up - so one-sided damage is a good possibility for that type of machine.

Capehart made a machine that could flip over the record even earlier iirc. But the main companies made 'boxes that played one side only. Later there arms with a stylus on both sides of the arm, so the other side of a record was played upside down. I well remember that from my teenage years.

Most of the jukes that played both sides of 78rpm records (at the user discretion) used different styli or completely different cartridges for the two sides. Post-WWII models from Wurlitzer come to mind that used two tonearms with Zenith cobra pickups. Prior to those models, Capehart made prewar models that played both sides in the sequence that they were loaded into the magazine, turning each record over after playing one side. The user didn't get to choose the record side, the juke simply played the next selection after the coin drop. These early jukes used steel or tungsten needles. The Capehart 16-E and 41-E flipover consumer changers also played records sequentially, and the early 16-Es also used steel or tungsten needles. Due to this sequential play, it's likely that these machines produced similar wear on both sides of each record.

The first of the Seeburg Select-O-Matics (just postwar) were 78rpm jukes that allowed the user to select a desired side in an arbitrary sequence. These machines used a single cartridge with two styli. This system gained popularity and was continued by Seeburg and others (NSM) for years into the 45rpm era. But the early Select-O-Matics used sapphire styli operating at about 30 grams. These needles wore out quicky and probably ground up records pretty badly. It's likely that the "hit" side of a record got considerably more ground up than the other side on one of these jukes.

Thanks for all the replies! and Hi Greg! So nice to see you after too long a time!

Thanks all for your responses so far! I am thinking that the "one bad stylus, one good one" jukebox theory is a pretty good one, now. And Hi Greg! So nice to see you on the internets, after too long a time (for us)!