The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I was under the impression that only six of the ten-inch records (10001 – 10006) and six of the twelve-inch records (30001 – 30006) were issued.

However, after reviewing the Ray Wile publication it confirmed the latter but not the former. It documents 10007 and 10008. I have never seen these two issues. Does anyone know if number 7 & 8 were actually released?

Yes, the 7 and 8 10" were released and do turn up.
Phonofix

Hi Rod, Yes, all the numbers 10001 thru 10008 were released commercially. I have them all.

Thanks Greg. 7 and 8 must be exceptionally rare.

Greg,

Do you also have equipment to play them, a deck with correct stylus or?

Also wondering if the last two 12" are really more rare? I thought all the titles were pretty much released in one shot.

Just curious.

Bruce, my Edison LP records appear to be near mint. I wouldn't even THINK about trying to murder them on an original Edison LP player. I have the parts to convert one of my C-250s to LP play, but I haven't felt the need to do it. I can play the records on a modern turntable with microgroove stylus and wired for vertical response. All the Edison LP DDs released commercially are dubs, so they don't sound particularly good.

The Edison LPs were indeed microgroove. At 450 lines per inch (LPI) pitch, they are a finer pitch than most modern vinyl LPs. It's no wonder the Edison LPs were a commercial disaster - it's very difficult to mold modern LPs with this fine pitch, never mind trying to play them with a heavy acoustic reproducer. By the way, Edison invented the commercial microgroove record back in 1908 with the first wax amberols at 200 LPI pitch. Modern vinyl LPs average about this same pitch. Which makes 450 LPI super-microgroove. And RCA introduced the 33-1/3rpm speed to consumers in 1931 (it had been in use by professional users even earlier). And plastic record materials including *Vitrolac* and vinyl were already in use by the postwar era in 78 production. All of which is to lay to rest the claim that Columbia *invented* the vinyl LP record in 1948. All they did was piece together several much older technologies.

Interestingly, like the Edisons, the earliest Columbia LPs were also dubs of earlier 78s with several records played sequentially into the LP recorder to make one LP side. Magnetic tape had not come into widespread use for mastering recordings yet (the USA had only recently *liberated* the technology from the Germans in WWII), so new LP recordings would have required the talent to perform continuously and flawlessly over the duration of the record side, a difficult feat to accomplish. Many of the early RCA LPs from the 1930s were labelled as *program transcriptions* and they were, indeed, direct recordings of full lengthy performances - clams and all.

Columbia also had the benefit of nearly 10 years of 33 ⅓ RPM lacquer session discs to put into service for LP production, negating the need to use 78's. Although it was probably done, as at RCA and elsewhere. I've read accounts of how hair raising it was to bounce between two turntables playing 78's, while trying to cut an LP lacquer, one slip and you had to start the whole process over again.

And with the 1931 RCA long players I don't know the ratio, but some were dubs from 78's. Some were direct recordings.

Wolfe wrote:And with the 1931 RCA long players I don't know the ratio, but some were dubs from 78's. Some were direct recordings.

Very few were direct recordings, most were dubs. Someplace there's an article which lists most if not all of the LP issues RCA (Victor) put out and what was dubbed and what wasn't. If I can locate it later, I'll post it here. There were some issues that were recorded simultaneously on LP and 78 masters as well, some Stokowski pieces come to mind, but specifically I can't remember which ones. I just got two of his LP issues, one of the Nutcracker which is likely dubbed and Beethoven's 5th Symphony, which might be a direct recording. I picked these up cheap at the last Wayne show, but I haven't cleaned or played them yet. I know the Whiteman "Rhapsody In Blue" is certainly a dub, it's obvious within seconds. The "Victor Artists Party" disc is a direct recording and actually has pretty astounding fidelity.

Sean

Sean, you're right: the Stokowski Beethoven Fifth was a direct recording, and I believe it was the only direct classical LP that Victor did at that time. I wonder if those series of organ recordings for funeral homes and such were direct? They were played by Charles O'Connell who was on staff and the company owned a church with an organ right down the block. I t wouldn't have been hard to have O'Connell noodle his way through a hymn medly. There was Restful Organ Music L24012 L-24020 and Sacred Music for Funeral Parlors L35000 There was also a series by the Green Brothers played on the Deagan Vibra-Harp (?) and Chimes. These and the O'Connell sides were the only LP's in the catalogue by 1940.
Jim

Jack Hylton playing Goodnight Sweetheart / My sunshine is you is also a dub. Again obvious from the sound quality.

S-B-H