The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I'm not sure if this is too off topic for this board, but since most people use Google to research antique phonographs and records, I thought I'd mention this.

I finished work early today and thought I'd spend an hour researching something I've wondered about for some time -- Who invented/designed/patented the #4 sound box, used by Victor and The Gramophone Co?

I went to Google's Patent Search page -- http://www.google.com/patents -- switched to the "Advanced Search" page and typed in a few phrases: "Sound Box" OR Reproducer, then narrowed down the search to check for patents filed between Jan, 1924 and Dec., 1926.

I called up about 50 results, none of which was what I was looking for. I then modified my search for "Victor Talking Machine" for the same date period, to see what specific patents were filed under the company's name.

I clicked on and looked at five results. When I clicked on the sixth one listed, I was greeted with the following message:

We're sorry...

... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process your request right now.

We'll restore your access as quickly as possible, so try again soon. In the meantime, if you suspect that your computer or network has been infected, you might want to run a virus checker or spyware remover to make sure that your systems are free of viruses and other spurious software.

If you're continually receiving this error, you may be able to resolve the problem by deleting your Google cookie and revisiting Google. For browser-specific instructions, please consult your browser's online support center.

If your entire network is affected, more information is available in the Google Web Search Help Center.

We apologize for the inconvenience, and hope we'll see you again on Google.

Tried it again, and got the same message. Seems I had been locked out of doing any further patent searches! I was also blocked from using other Google specialty search pages, such as Google Catalog, and Google Maps!

I was still able to access Google's main search page, so I copied and pasted part of the above message into the search box and came up with about 49,000 results. After checking out a few, I learned that Google has installed some high-tech sensors that try to detect automated fishing software. Unfortunately, that same software also prevents legitimate, individual users from doing extensive web searches! So far, Google has done nothing to address this problem.

Fortunately, most users are barred from Google's special web search pages for about 30-60 minutes, but under some circumstances, it can be for several days. (In some cases, users have been barred from accessing all of Google's sites during this period!)

After reading over several complaints on a number of message boards, I spotted one helpful recommendation: When doing an extensive or comprehensive web search which involves checking out multiple sites or pages, it's best to take a break every few minutes, and clear your browser's cache, rather than rapidly clicking on one after another after another.

Weird, never heard of that.

Ortho_Fan,

Very strange, Thanks for the heads-up. I think a lot of us do similar searches when trying to track done info. on some of the more obscure phonographs, so we'd also sooner or later run into that problem. Hopefully Google will be able to address the problem.

Regards,
John

Ortho_Fan,

If you were doing very rapid searches in succession, some engines interpret this as the acts of malicious software, and probably this is what happened. I have not tested it to confirm what I am describing, but I have known it to occur with other things. Take a break from searching if it happens to you again, then see if (after giving it a bit) the problem persists.

Hope this helps,

MordEth

Speaking of the No 4 Soundbox, it seems to have been the brianchild of Harry O Sooy, one of the three Sooy brothers who were the main recording technicians at Victor. If you check out his memoirs...http://www.davidsarnoff.org/sooyh-maintext1921.html

and start reading at February 13th, you'll get the saga of the Number 4 in the context of the transition to electrical recording. It's interesting to read that he had designed the box in 1915.
Jim

MordEth wrote:Ortho_Fan,

If you were doing very rapid searches in succession, some engines interpret this as the acts of malicious software, and probably this is what happened. ... Take a break from searching if it happens to you again, then see if (after giving it a bit) the problem persists.

That's exactly what I was doing -- CLICK, "Darn-it! Nothing!" CLICK, "Darn-it! Nothing!" CLICK, "Darn-it! Nothing!" CLICK, "Darn-it! Nothing!" CLICK, "GAAAAAAAHHHH!!!"

And, you're right, after about 30 minutes, or so, I found I was able to call up the Google Patent Search site again.

Lenoirstreetguy wrote:Speaking of the No 4 Sound box, it seems to have been the brainchild of Harry O Sooy, one of the three Sooy brothers who were the main recording technicians at Victor. If you check out his memoirs...http://www.davidsarnoff.org/sooyh-maintext1921.html

and start reading at February 13th, you'll get the saga of the Number 4 in the context of the transition to electrical recording. It's interesting to read that he had designed the box in 1915.
Jim

Jim: MANY THANKS! I've been trying to locate a reference to this for years. The only thing I've ever spotted was a brief mention in From Tinfoil to Stereo, where the authors stated that at the time the Western Electric engineers demonstrated their electrical recording process and prototype Orthophonic machine to the Victor executives, Victor countered by playing the records on a machine they had cobbled together, using a "sound box taken from an earlier experiment." (I don't have access to the book right now to find the exact quote or page #).

The same story was told by Fenimore Johnson in his book of memoirs too. The time frame in his is book doesn't quite jive with Sooy's memoirs. The memoirs too, Sooy's I mean, throw another light on the the old...and I think essentially inaccurate...canard that the North American companies in particular were basicially sleepwalking through the early twenties in total denial about the advent of electronic recording. T'ain't true and and I am working on an article with just that thesis. The only one who had his fingers in his ears going " La lala la..) was old TAE himself.
Jim Tennyson

Jim

One might think so, but he had just spent four years experimenting with extra long [40' and 125'] recording horns, and that line of work ended immediately when Victor and Columbia announced electrical recording [and all the experimental work for lateral recording had been done for them by Western Electric/Bell Telephone Labs]. The Edison people had to start from scratch, and had a two year period of development before they came up with electrical recordings as good as their last acousticals.

Speaking of the No 4 Soundbox, it seems to have been the brianchild of Harry O Sooy, one of the three Sooy brothers who were the main recording technicians at Victor. If you check out his memoirs...http://www.davidsarnoff.org/sooyh-maintext1921.html

and start reading at February 13th, you'll get the saga of the Number 4 in the context of the transition to electrical recording. It's interesting to read that he had designed the box in 1915.

Indeed it was but what is interesting is that the HMV range of soundboxes is missing a 'Number 3'. For many years it was assumed that the Lumiere Diaphragm machine accounted for the missing number in sequence, given that the Lumiere Diaphragm is a soundbox of sorts. However, it might appear now that Sooy had developed several prototypes, one of which was an earlier style to the later No.4, but not used for some reason.

However none of this really explains the reluctance of Victor / HMV to manufacture it long before they did. The replacement for the HMV Exhibition was the No. 2 introduced in 1923, albeit only for the more expensive machines. Just imagine that the remarkably superior 'No.4' was sitting on a drawing board for probably at least 8 years prior to this and it would be another 2 years before HMV would introduce it!

Were they slow?

I've always wondered about that too. Given that there were a few incarnations of the Exhibition, the no. 2 still used much of the old technology. The no. 4 with its far larger diaphragm, floating ball cantilever was a true step forward. No wonder HMV used it for many years to avoid the crippling costs of the WE patent. The no. 4 was quite kind on the older acoustic records and coped perfectly well with the new electric ones. Particurlarly with the 'saxophone' type horns HMV used. They weren't as bold in your face as a contemporary Victrola, but they still sounded and CAN sound quite nice. Remember Europe was going through a rough time after WW1. Half the male population was killed in the trenches, the economy was in shambles, so there simply wasn't that much money available. It wasn't until the late 1920s when the license costs went down significantly that we were able to follow.
That may also account for the differenc in numbers of cabinets available. Orthophonic machines were made in huge numbers, Re-entrants in only a fraction of that. A reasonable Credenza still can be found for around $200, it's equivalent, an HMV 163 in decent condition will set you back at least 1,000 euros (1,400 dollars). And both may need their soundboxes seen after.