The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I have a 14 in bb horn that certainly appears orginal to me but it is lacking the Pat.Pending stamp. There is definately alot of age to this horn but I would not want to miss represent it.

Does anyone know if there were original 14 in horns without this stamp.

going from left to right

horn No.1 is an original with the Pat stamp bell size 6 ⅞ inches

horn No.2 is the horn in question bell size 7 ½ inches

horn No.3 is certainly a repro. bell size 7 ¼ inches

All three are the exact height. I took the pictures on a sofa and it distored the sizes somewhat.

fmblizz

In my opinion, the horn on the left is the only original horn. The raised bead where the black meets the brass is the determining detail. The better reproduction horns have crimped small ends but lack the raised bead. The best reproduction horns were made by the Smiths and they go back far enough to show age. The original all brass horns were constructed differently so don't look for the raised bead to be the determining factor. I hope this helps. Jerry Blais

What Jerry said - - and yes, there are original 14" B&B horns without any stamping.

George P.

All of the horns that I could prove were originals had the following characteristics:

1. All have brass bead on the outside circumference
2. All have the metal part being one piece which means that the smallest end was stamped and then the horn was crimped into a cone. (no brass or metal tube soldered on the small end)
3. All have small end is ⅝" long before tapering begins
4. Some have the PAT APLD FOR stamp on them
5. Some only have TCT in an oval stamped on them. (Tea Tray Company)
6. Some have no markings at all on them

Steve

I am enclosing a picture of the small end of the horn in question. From the responses so far,, Am I right in assuming that if there is no brass bead where the metal meets the brass bell then it is probably a reproduction??

fmblizz

Just curious (as a long-time trombonist, now happily retired!), has anybody ever tried fitting, say, a Bb trumpet bell to a cylinder phonograph? Trumpet bells, even on the cheaper so-called "student" models, were typically made by spinning and/or "invisible" -seam soldering, and are very highly finished. As with phonograph bells, trumpet (all brass, for that matter) bells come in a variety of bell-end and diameters and taper characteristics. Getting that swage on the narrow end might be a challenge, although with the right tools (brass instrument repair shop!) it could conceivably be done. I know how highly valued authenticity is to collectors, but as long as some folks are putting repro parts on anyway, this might be worth a look.

fmblizz wrote:I am enclosing a picture of the small end of the horn in question. From the responses so far,, Am I right in assuming that if there is no brass bead where the metal meets the brass bell then it is probably a reproduction??

fmblizz

I cannot for sure assume that unless it has the bead on the outside and that bead made of metal. What does the quality of the brass itself look like? Can you see spin marks on the brass bell or is a real smooth almost mirror like finish when polished? Many of the early reproductions did not have a quality polished brass bell. You can see the spin marks in the brass.

I normally do not polish the brass if it is in decient shape. From what I can see this brass bell would polish up nicely. I see no signs of swirl marks which I do see in the reproduction horn.

I just found another 14 inch horn that I always thought was original. Low and behold it also does not have any markings on it but it does have a brass bead where the steel mates to the brass bell.

I have include a picture of that horn. It has the same exact dimensions as the horn which has the patent stamp and also shows age.

Now I find myself with 4 horns, one with the pat. stamp, one with bead and no stamp,
one that is a definate repro that I purchase with a machine and the orginal horn in question with no bead and no stamp but alot of age and what I feel is a high quality brass bell.

fmblizz

Nice lineup
Andreas