Playing to the carpet.

Discussions on Talking Machines of British or European Manufacture
epigramophone
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Playing to the carpet.

Post by epigramophone »

Elizabeth Schumann demonstrates a disadvantage of the HMV163.
To get the best sound you have to sit on the floor! She should have bought an EMG.
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Inigo
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by Inigo »

Haha! I've been quite a number of times listening to my 194 this way. It is taller than the 163, but nevertheless, if you want your ears just in front of the horn centre, you have to sit on the floor too! :D
If the room is large, and there are no carpets on the floor (my room) then you listen to it well going far from the machine. I suppose the sound reflects on the floor and comes to you equally. But if you want to be near the machine... a children's seat, or the floor are a must!
From a low sofa placed in front of the machine, and not too near, it sounds also beautifully. It's a matter of having the lowest possible angle from the horn centre to your ears. :D
Dear little Schumann sitting on the floor! How nice!
(For me, her HMV DB2291 Bist du bei mir, from Bach, is among my all-favorite records)
Inigo

poodling around
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by poodling around »

epigramophone wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:54 am Elizabeth Schumann demonstrates a disadvantage of the HMV163.
To get the best sound you have to sit on the floor! She should have bought an EMG.
Buy an EMG ? No .................just invest in a pair of long distance ear trumpets.

Scatter them on the floor and sit anywhere you want ! :lol:

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/ne ... to/3317613

JerryVan
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by JerryVan »

A very dignified pose for one who is sitting on the floor.

I sometimes lay on the floor in front of my Credenza, with my head facing the horn opening. The first time my wife saw me do that she thought I had fainted. Funny...

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BassetHoundTrio
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by BassetHoundTrio »

I used to do that with my Credenza! Absolutely the best sound. Our basset hounds have the advantage!
JerryVan wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:45 am A very dignified pose for one who is sitting on the floor.

I sometimes lay on the floor in front of my Credenza, with my head facing the horn opening. The first time my wife saw me do that she thought I had fainted. Funny...

HMVDevotee
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by HMVDevotee »

This interesting advert actually begs the question; is the legendary sound from the Expert/EMG machines due to superior acoustics or the fact that their listener's heads are generally closer in line with their horns? Given the highly directional nature of horns, a technical comparison, a controlled test in a dead room with microphones carefully placed in regards to axial position and distance from the horn where frequency range, response, and harmonic distortions are measured, would be required.

How interesting it would be to study the research notes and test results from the Western Electric / Bell Labs when they developed the re-entrant horn later used in the big HMVs.

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Steve
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by Steve »

None of that should be necessary. Anyone with ears and the opportunity to compare both side by side will tell you its due to superior acoustic reproduction and not simply the height of the horn. I'm not saying the height doesn't help but if you put an EMG on the floor and sit in an elevated position level with it you will still hear the same superior sound quality.

The later EMGs and Experts, certainly 10As, Bs and Expert Seniors etc definitely win out over the best internal horn machines (HMV 202/3) due to a) superior soundboxes and b) the less resonant horn material and construction and c) the horns suspended in free space ie. not clamped into a wooden cabinet. All these factors contribute to the overall sound quality.
Last edited by Steve on Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

CarlosV
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by CarlosV »

Steve wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:25 pm None of that would be necessary. Anyone with ears will tell you its due to superior acoustic reproduction and not the height of the horn. I'm not saying the height doesn't help but if you put an EMG on the floor and sit in elevated position level with it you will still hear the same superior sound.

The later EMGs and Experts, certainly 10As, Bs and Expert Seniors etc definitely win out over the best internal horn machines due to a) superior soundboxes and b) the less resonant horn construction and c) their horns suspended in free space ie. not clamped into a wooden cabinet. All these things contribute to the overall sound quality.
In addition to what Steve mentioned, the above EMGs and Experts have larger exponential horns than the internal horn cabinets, and with the larger bell you get a lower cutoff frequency. No dispute there, height of horns does not have a significant infuence in quality of sound. The only internal horn machine that comes close to EMGs and Experts is the HMV202.

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physicist
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by physicist »

The height of the horn does matter - insofar as it can make it more inconvenient to get your ears on axis with the horn.
I have recorded the same disc twice with the horn on axis and 30 degrees off axis.
fats_dinah_mm-1c_on_axis.mp3
on axis
(2.75 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
on axis
on axis
fats_dinah_mm-1c_on_axis.jpg (70.78 KiB) Viewed 142 times
fats_dinah_mm-1c_30_degree_off_axis.mp3
off axis
(2.72 MiB) Downloaded 2 times
off axis
off axis
fats_dinah_mm-1c_30_degree_off_axis.jpg (70.11 KiB) Viewed 142 times
As you can see from the spectral analyses, there is significant loss of both low and high frequencies when listening off axis.
(Not recorded in an anechoic chamber so the room dimensions and fittings obviously will also have some impact. )

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Inigo
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Re: Playing to the carpet.

Post by Inigo »

Yes, with the second recording we're listening to the echo of the room.when I recorded from my 194 I placed the mobile phone on a music stand on front of the machine, height and position adjusted so the mic is in the axis of the horn (roughly). Other times I sat in a low sofa, holding the phone in similar position.
The results are fairly good.
A couple examples
https://youtu.be/uhtY3VXt2CE
https://youtu.be/7ppWGwCs_QM
Inigo

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