Good phonograph for newbies?

[m1tch]

Ooo that is a nice phonograph but like you said its kinda rare, so it might be easier for me to get a HMV 102 and make a case up like that. That way I will have all the looks of that fine player, but still have all the easy to find parts that the 102 offers.

[OrthoFan]

Ooo that is a nice phonograph but like you said its kinda rare, so it might be easier for me to get a HMV 102 and make a case up like that. That way I will have all the looks of that fine player, but still have all the easy to find parts that the 102 offers.

The VV-50 is not at all rare in the US--normally priced at $250-400, depending on condition; but I've only seen a couple for sale on eBay UK.

By the way, have you seen the HMV 461:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDhUhKwM8_0[/youtube]

I've seen a few of these for sale, only in the UK, and don't know how common these are. (Steve probably knows....) These basically used the guts of an HMV 101 installed in left over stock cabinets originally used for the short-lived HMV 460:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEH4AyqW1M[/youtube]

[m1tch]

Those are some nice machines there what is that HUGE gold disk called on the 460? Thats so shiny lol

I am liking the 461, its a nice looking machine I will definatly keep my eye out for one of those as well

[Howard]

That is the Lumiere patent Celluliod Diaphragm. Patented in France in 1897 but only used by HMV from 1926.

Bless

Howard

[OrthoFan]

Those are some nice machines there what is that HUGE gold disk called on the 460? Thats so shiny lol

That's known as the Lumiere diaphragm, designed by Louis Lumiere in France, and licensed to The Victor Talking Machine Co. and The Gramophone Co., LTD.

Basically, it's a large, pleated, paper diaphragm that takes the place of the sound box, tonearm and horn. It works kind of like a conventional modern loudspeaker, but, of course, uses no electricity. The needle's vibrations are transferred mechanically to the center of the diaphragm.

Here's another HMV 460

These were used on a couple of cabinet models in the UK. In the US, the diaphragm was used in one Victor product-- the Victor Loud Speaker Model 1, which was sold as an attachment speaker for radio sets.

[m1tch]

Ah ok, I thought it might be something like that

Unlike this compressed air amplification model:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7SV65DF ... re=related

That's just crazy loud!

[m1tch]

Right, I have decided that I want either a HMV 102 or a HMV 461

I'm guessing the 461 would be more expensive and I wouldn't touch the case, it looks awesome, I guess I wouldn't touch the 102's case either if it was in that fab black and silver very swish

Is there anywhere I can download a pdf service guide for either?

What things should I look for in either machine to find a good problem free one?

[Steve]

Right, I have decided that I want either a HMV 102 or a HMV 461

I'm guessing the 461 would be more expensive and I wouldn't touch the case, it looks awesome, I guess I wouldn't touch the 102's case either if it was in that fab black and silver very swish

Is there anywhere I can download a pdf service guide for either?

What things should I look for in either machine to find a good problem free one?

The 102 will probably be more expensive if it's a really good one. The 461 is a bit of a "no man's machine". It just isn't interesting enough as a gramophone, unlike say its predecessor, the 460 with Lumiere pleated gold paper diaphragm, and it isn't even particularly good as a table model to listen to. The problem is you cannot close the lid whilst playing a record as the horn mouth is at the rear of the case and terminates INSIDE the machine, exactly the same as the 101 portable! You therefore tend to get a lot of scratchy surface noise to the fore and it also only has the No. 4 soundbox. Contrary to what Ortho_Fan has said, it actually isn't "101 fittings" shoe-horned into the Lumiere case. The tone-arm and auto stop arrangement are unique to this machine. The finish to the hardware was described as "gold plated" but it is more like gold lacquer and has a unique mirror finish markedly different to the normal gold plating found on other top-of-the-line HMV and Victor machines. No 101 ever had this finish as standard. The 461 is a bit of an oddball machine and can usually be found for less than £200. A poor condition example might still fetch £75 for the hardware alone. Good 102's tend to be very pricey (for some bizarre reason) and I've witnessed people paying over £200 for smart black case examples! Which machine is better? Well, for convenience of storage, portability and style the 102 is an all-round winner. The 461 might sound better and have a great quarter veneered plain Deco style cabinet but it is quite a big lump and requires a deep table to stand it on. The 461 also has the Victor 32 motor which means it's prone to dry graphite grease on the springs which will need attention. You'll hear the motor bump and knock whilst it's playing.

The 102 is a robust little machine and has no such motor problems. I think of it as being almost maintenance free. The 461 has a rubber gasket type soundbox whereas the 102 will have the felt gasket which does not need replacing. Rebuilding the No. 4 soundbox is a cinch though if you're prepared to put time into this machine. The choice is yours. I'd probably buy the 102 if I was you and I wanted either one of the pair. If you ever want to sell either machine, you WILL sell the 102 much more easily and quickly.

There are no service guides for either machine, sadly.

A couple of final points: Beware of the crazing that occurs to the lacquered finish of the veneered case of the 461. Most collectors (out of ignorance?) tend to get these repolished by a good old fashion craftsman who will use traditional french polishing techniques to get that deep piano gloss shine. It looks great but it is 100% WRONG! These cabinets originally were finished with spray applied cellulose lacquer and the difference shows.

Now the 102: during part of its very long production run, some examples had those record trays that sit on the turntable to store records in transit. Some have wings which catch on the upright posts fixed to the motorboard (to prevent it from spinning in transit). Others omit the wings because they were issued on 102's without the uprights (go figure). Make sure if your machine should a) have the tray and b) that it has the correct one. The trays can be bought off Ebay from time to time but most have brown baize to match the standard brown t/table felt found on the black case machines. If you buy a red, green or blue 102 and it's missing its tray, you might struggle to find the matching tray etc and even if you do find one, the chances are the baize will not match exactly due to differences in fading / colour batches etc. I believe the trays existed between the time of the original launch model Dec '31/Jan '32 and 1939 (war time supplies and rationing of material forced the "economising" carried out).

HTH

Steve

[OrthoFan]

Contrary to what Ortho_Fan has said, it actually isn't "101 fittings" shoe-horned into the Lumiere case. The tone-arm and auto stop arrangement are unique to this machine...

Hi Steve:

Thanks for correcting that. Do you know if the 461 uses the same size horn as the 101, or is it larger/longer?

[Steve]

Do you know if the 461 uses the same size horn as the 101, or is it larger/longer?

No problem, Ortho_Fan, and to answer your question, yes I do know as I've had a couple of 461's and no less than six 460's!

The 461 is a much bigger machine than the 101. Do not be fooled by online pictures as they can be very misleading with regard to scale. The horn is consequently much longer and also has a much bigger opening in the case. It is a better sounding machine than the 101 portable although not as good as the 'standard' No. 4 soundbox HMV table machines due to the inability to close the lid whilst playing.