Good phonograph for newbies?

[m1tch]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum, My name is David and I'm from the UK, I have been looking around for a nice phonograph/gramophone (is there a difference?) as a project and something to enjoy.

I am looking for more of a project kind of machine as I want to learn repair both in metalwork and woodwork and a phonograph seems to be the best of both. I will also have something that can be polished and be proud of as well as something that will give enjoyment.

I was just wondering what the best kind of machine a newbie should look into, I'm also wanting to learn how these things go together as I am also into unusual timepieces.

I have had a look at the cylinder phonographs and they seem quite cool, although with a shorter play length and fragility/difficulty in getting cylinders, I'm thinking an 'LP' vinyl machine.

I think the most impressive gramophone I have seen is a pocket 'mikophone' I saw on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFzBmfuVQUc

I am liking the cleverness of this machine, as well as something like this Japanese example I saw on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Premium-Gramophon ... 2c514b2e11

What would be a good starter gramophone/phonograph I should go for? I need something simple, but elegant that is made of wood and brass, so its a conversation piece as well.

Thanks for any replies

[Neophone]

David,

First off welcome aboard!

I think your best bet would be an HMV gramophone to start with. Over this side of the pond we call them all phonographs but my understanding is in England a phonograph is a cylinder machine while a gramophone is a disc machine. What type of music are you most interested in? That will have a bearing on the type of machines collect. I mainly collect late teens mid twenties Victor Victrolas myself, machines that are very common over here. The great thing about the common machines is they are inexpensive and parts are easier to come by. There is a great deal of enjoyment to be had in cylinder phonographs as well.

I do have an HMV 101 portable and it is one of my most loved machines.

Regards,
John

[m1tch]

Thanks for the warm welcome I'm into all sorts of music, but I'm looking for something that gives a nice ambiance, so I'm thinking mainly classical music would be best, and early music of the 1920s and 30s.

I had a look at a photo of a portable 101, I do like the nice metallic and meaty arm and mechanical drive is a must, but I'm looking for something with a horn.

Maybe something along the lines of this:



I don't want to get a HUGE machine, so it would need to be a table top sort, and not too large, looking for something compact but stylish really. I guess a cylinder phonograph would fit the bill, but I'm unsure about cylinders are they don't have a long play length.

[Neophone]

David,

In general you're looking at more money for an external horn machine, but still I'd advise going with common make such as HMV, Victor or Columbia. Good luck.

Regards,
John

[OrthoFan]

Before deciding, check out as many youtube videos as you can for Gramophone, Phonograph, Antique Record player, etc. That should give you a good idea of the various types, and what they sound like.

If you like orchestral works, say from the 1930s, then you'd want a gramophone designed to play electrically recorded records. I agree with John's suggestion about a good quality portable, since gramophones such as the HMV 101, or especially, the HMV 102, were specifically designed to play these records, and are readily available in your area at reasonable prices. These sound excellent--closer in quality to an electrically amplified gramophone than an acoustic one. (There are quite a number of HMV 101 & HMV 102 videos on Youtube.)

For instance, here's an HMV 102 playing a demanding orchestral recording:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtjuS_ieFfs[/youtube]

The outside horn gramophone, in the picture you've provided, was made during the era of the earlier acoustically recorded record, which ended about 1925 in most places. While these will play some of the later electrically recorded records, they can be very hard on them, and there will be considerable blasting and distortion, depending on how the sound box (reproducer) is adjusted.

This site provides a good basic history of the various recording methods -- http://history.sandiego.edu/GEN/recording/notes.html

The thing to avoid is the "Crap-O-Phone" --

SEE --
http://www.mainspringpress.com/crapo.html
http://www.oldcrank.com/articles/crapop ... ction.html
http://www.gramophones.info/graminformation.html#Q050

They are for sale all over eBay, when you do a search for Gramophone. While they may look nice in the photographs, they are absolute garbage from a construction standpoint. Most come equipped with damaged sound boxes that will not play records, slapped together (glued) cases that fall apart at a glance, and motors guaranteed to "SPROING" after a few cranks.



BTW, there are a number of UK based members here. I'm sure they will be more than willing to offer some helpful tips, or further advice, the next time they check in.

[Valecnik]

David,

Welcome to the forum. Glad to have you. I won't try to convince you to start with a cylinder machine as it may not be the most practical for you in the UK. However check out some of my youtube videos or those of others. Here's one example of mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0AAX4TScHI

Best recommendation is not to hurry. Consider many options, get a sense of what's available and then choose. If you like late 20s and early 30s music, one of the HMV machines may be a good option. Just study a bit, ask more questions and then decide, enjoy.

Cheers,
Bruce

[Brad]

Welcome David,

A great book that covers repair and restoration is "The Compleat Talking Machine". It covers basic through advanced topics and is a great reference. I would highly recommend it.

You mentioned that you want to get into repair and restoration. I am not sure if it was mentioned above but I would advise that you start with a major brand machine (HMV, Victor, Edison, Columbia) as you will have an easier time finding parts. There is a plethora of off brands that can be next to impossible to find parts for. Once you get into the hobby and learn more you will be able to look at a project machine and know what challenges you will face in restoral.

Jump in and have fun!

Brad

[m1tch]

Thanks for all the replys its much appreciated

First off, I didn't actually know you could get 'fake' phonographs, but I guess with everything that is desirable, someone out there will try and make them lol so thanks for the heads up on that one!

I will definatly have a think about the different sorts and will keep the the most common makes so that I can still get parts for them!

I had a look at a few videos of those HMV 101s, as they are portible they are in a portible case, but were there any made with the same internals but with a more decorative case? Maybe I could make one for it? Sorry for this being a newbie question, but I can see in the lid when lifted it has a slot in it, is this directly connected to any of the sound output or just acting like a sounding board for sound reflection? What im getting as is is everything that is put in the bottom of the casing could be taken out as a whole and transplanted?

I also had a look at some cylinder phonographs like the edison model D, which seems to be nice and compact with a horn. I was just wondering how long the cylinders take before they wear out? I do like the sound that the earlier cylinder ones make, it sounds more mechanical

[OrthoFan]

Thanks for all the replys Sorry for this being a newbie question, but I can see in the lid when lifted it has a slot in it, is this directly connected to any of the sound output or just acting like a sounding board for sound reflection? What im getting as is is everything that is put in the bottom of the casing could be taken out as a whole and transplanted?

Hi Mitch:

There was a post string on Phonoland about the restoration of an Electrola Portable (wich is virtually identical to the HMV 101). It shows all of the components--horn, motor, etc.-- SEE: http://www.phonoland.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&p=8314

This will show you what would be involved in such a project.

HTH,
OF

[m1tch]

Thanks for all the replys Sorry for this being a newbie question, but I can see in the lid when lifted it has a slot in it, is this directly connected to any of the sound output or just acting like a sounding board for sound reflection? What im getting as is is everything that is put in the bottom of the casing could be taken out as a whole and transplanted?

Hi Mitch:

There was a post string on Phonoland about the restoration of an Electrola Portable (wich is virtually identical to the HMV 101). It shows all of the components--horn, motor, etc.-- SEE: http://www.phonoland.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&p=8314

This will show you what would be involved in such a project.

HTH,
OF

Thanks for that nice find Just having a look it doesn't look toooo bad, I don't think I would be confident enough to change the spring over, might have to get one that has been already put together - else the spring might vanish somewhere if I let it go lol

I have very limited knowledge of how things like this would go together, and very limited tools lol but it seems that most stuff can be screwed together or bolted together looking at all those pins and such.

I guess instead of replacing the OEM casing with that rexine I could perhaps put wood? or try and polish up the OEM box? Its a good idea to put some mahogany veneer on the box, less expensive lol

Are those 101s easy to work on then? Im guessing I would be able to get a reconditioned spring fitted to the springbox/motor?