Viva-Tonal on Ebay

[gregbogantz]

The Columbia Viva-Tonal machines are interesting, if only to compare them with the Victor orthophonics of the same era. I have the 611, 613, and 810 models. The little 600 series sounds just about the same as the small Victors such as the 4-3 (which I also have). They used a simple, non-folded exponential style horn which was nearly the same size and shape on both the small Columbias and Victors.

The 810 is not up to par with the big Victors such as the Credenza, largely because the horn is not an accurate embodiment of the exponential principle. Columbia chose not to pay the royalties to Western Electric for the patents related to the large exponential horn, so they set out to design their own larger horns. But the 800 series is still pleasant sounding with a somewhat mellower sound than the big Victors. I and others have written extensively about this in posts to the "other" boards. Unfortunately, those posts are apparently lost to history, so I guess we'll have to trot out these opinions all over again on this forum. I have not heard one of the 700 series of Columbias, so I can't comment on them.

The Columbia #15 reproducer is quite friendly to rebuild - much easier than the ortho Victor. The biggest problem is the rubber connector frammis that couples the reproducer to the tonearm mount. This was a custom-molded piece. These have now hardened to stone, and I don't know of anyone who is making reproductions. The main issue here is that this rubber piece also seals the connection to prevent air leaks. When you replace this piece, you have to figure out how to do it in such a way to seal up the air leaks. It's difficult to explain without pictures, but this is a somwhat complicated rubber coupling. I have replaced it with a contraption made of screws, washers, and flat rubber bits, but it doesn't look like the original. But the #15 is not nearly as good a design as the Victor from several standpoints. It tracks at a heavier force than the Victor, has more moving mass and less compliance, and consequently does not have as extended a frequency response with poorer bass and poorer treble performance.

Still, I recommend that you consider adding any of the Viva-Tonals to your collection as they are better sounding than any of the pre-ortho style phonographs.

[B.B.B]

This is the rubber washer, very special design.
I re-used it & soaked the whole thing in "liquid washer" a sort of non-hardening silicone gel. I also added the gel in the screw holes. Worked great.

Here it is before rebuild

As you can see, the diaphragm was completely toasted
I found a few of these, tried one & it worked perfectly, it now sounds superb!!

[estott]

Thanks for the pictures! As I see it, if the rubber is hardened but intact it can be sealed up and used, even if the damping effect is compromised. At least the diaphragm looks easier to replace than an Orthophonic.

I think I'll make a try for this one. If I can get it for $200 or less and pick it up it looks like an OK deal. I'll have to search out some more Viva-Tonal discs. A good proportion of mine have slightly bubbled surfaces indicating some problem with Columbia's lamination process but when they're in good shape the sound is first rate.

[larryh]

Unless I miss understood your question, or answer, I would say that you do not want to reuse that rubber gasket material. Maybe you were referring to the rubber rear gasket to the tone arm? Changing the rubber in the diaphragm is essential for good sound. In fact if the diaphragm is good, which many would be, that gasket alone will make a huge difference.

[estott]

OK- I am not getting this machine. I asked if the motor works and got this reply:
"We have not tried to play it for over 30 years. If you want us to try it and get back to you, we will be glad to!
wE DO NOT KNOW IF MOTOR STILL WORKS AS WE HAVE NOT TRIED TO PLAY IT."

Also, I've realized there's a major design problem with the cabinet. On the nicer Viva Tonal machines the doors slide into the cabinet when you open them. On this one they just hang open- very awkward. Maybe if this machine was closer to me and I could easily give it an examination I'd get it- but as it is, it's a no-go.

[solophoneman]

Yikes, they posted it and never tried to play it to see if it still works?? That is pretty silly, and bizarre !!Then you asked a perfectly logical and simple question, and rather then just going to the machine and cranking it up they ask you if you would like them to do it?? Wow, I just don't get it. Is it just me? Am I missing something here?? That is shear Craziness.

[OrthoFan]

Yikes, they posted it and never tried to play it to see if it still works?? That is pretty silly, and bizarre !!Then you asked a perfectly logical and simple question, and rather then just going to the machine and cranking it up they ask you if you would like them to do it?? Wow, I just don't get it. Is it just me? Am I missing something here?? That is shear Craziness.

I'm not surprised by that. It's represents a major difference between a fellow hobbyist who sells a machine, and someone who simply wants to dispose of great-grandma's old junk. About a month ago, in fact, I spotted a nice looking VV-2-55 (http://www.victor-victrola.com/2-55.htm) for sale on craigslist. I sent the seller an email and told him I would be interested in it only if it was in "working" condition. I explained, by that, I meant that the turntable should run smoothly and quietly with no bumping, rattling or grinding sounds. I also told him to check the "sound box"--which I provided a description of, in case he did not know what that was--along with the back bracket which holds the tonearm in place, for signs of cracking. I also asked him to verify that there were no signs of rust on the metal casing that did not show up in the photographs he provided with his ad.

The seller replied that it was "in excellent condition for it's age," and from what he could see, worked just fine.

I wrote him back and made arrangements for him to bring the machine over to my place, since he works near to where I live.

About a week later, the seller showed up. I was glad to see that the overall condition of the outer case was very good, but was disappointed to see that there were some rust spots in the horn area, as well as around the the motor board. While both the sound box and back bracket were in good condition, the pot metal surfaces had lost most of their gold color.

I then asked the seller if I could crank it up and try it. He said, "go ahead, it works just fine..."

The first thing I noticed was that it seemed to be fully wound, so I released the brake. The speed was set to its highest setting, so I immediately slowed it down to the center. It ran very smoothly, for about a half a minute, before it started making some bumping noises. Within about ten seconds I could hear--and feel--the spring violently explode with a BANG inside the case. The turntable slowed down with a horrible clanking noise, then stopped dead. I tried turning the crank but there was no tension buildup. What's more, the spindle felt slightly loose, moving up and down about ½ inch when I tugged on it.

Before the seller had a chance to say one word, I looked at him and said, I thought you told me it was in good working condition.

He said, I guess you don't want it huh?

I told him, sorry, but as I clearly stated in my original email to him, I wanted something in working condition.

I guess I could have gotten him to reduce his price, but I just didn't want to deal with yet another junker fixer-upper, and god only knows what damage was done to the motor when the spring exploded. Based on the clanking that followed, and the way the spindle popped up, I'd guess that it was more than a simple busted mainspring.)

[larryh]

I agree its a crap shoot as to whether something is going to be ok or not though ebay or craigs list. I purchased a different type of collectable on ebay and was rather reluctant because the seller was unable to make it work properly. But knowing what I did about what issues could be at hand, I purchased it and when it arrived yesterday i had it working in about 20 minutes. I was very pleased, but rather reluctant at first.
People that know nothing about victrolas, which is about 99 percent of the public, are not going to be very reliable sources for how one is working anyway. As long as the turn table moves many think things are fine. We know that isn't always the case.
Personally if it looks good, I would be tempted to try it, its a rather rare item for one thing. Second the ease of rebuilding the reproducer, provided the diaphragm is in good shape yet, make it a plus. If nothing else it might be worth a drive to look at it before purchasing if your really interested.

[Neophone]

Folks,

Personally I would love to add a nice Viva~tonal machine to my collection, beyond the fine portable I have. As Larry says sometimes the "repair" needed is nothing more that a slight adjustment. If you have them chance to check it out in person it's a safer bet than getting something through the mails.

The biggest draw back is, I think, the fact that these console models take up a lot of floor space. I know I have two!

The Columbia Viva~tonal horn is more "directional" than the Western Electric Orthophonic, but I've heard from many collectors that it has a fine mellow sound. I have not yet heard on in person myself.


Regards,
John

[MordEth]

The biggest draw back is, I think, the fact that these console models take up a lot of floor space. I know I have two!

John,

I know some people who could ‘arrange’ for you to lose a wall or two to accommodate another machine or two—all you have to do is provide the sledgehammer(s) required for that bit of home-surgery.

Your study could be extended into the kitchen, right?

— MordEth