Zonophone Concert V

[gramophone78]

I wasn't going to chime in. However, Bob is correct on both counts. It looks like Mirek made this. Could be an early one from him...??.

[vic-b]

Okay..., I just ran around the house and looked at 7 original reproducers and 1 reproduction. I actually have 3 different styles of needle bar retention screws, most of which look like Whitedogfive's. What I find more suspect is the diaphragm retention ring. On originals, the lip of the ring is rounded, and not as wide. On reproductions, the lip is flat, and wider. I also think the label is suspect.

I must admit, this is a toughie! The rusted needle bar and old wax look pretty good. I would have expected more nickle loss on the areas where the reproducer would have been handled, not just rust on the back and at the base of the diaphragm retention ring.

Do you have a little more history? Did this come with a machine, or did you buy it "ala carte?"

Regards,
Jeff
vic-b

[whitedogfive]

vic-b, I got the machine with the Concert V, a few years ago, a nice Concert model with original 23 inch all brass horn. It has the original crank, all nickel bed plate (peeling) and possible original support and carrying arm. The horn is rough with some dents and small cracks, but it is an early Zonophone horn with the short space between the bead and the edge of the horn flare. Date of the machine is 1902.

[vic-b]

If you bought this from a private party, you may be better off. If you bought this from a dealer, or another collector who has other Zonophones, all bets are off.

It the travel arm and travel arm support are reproductions from the Smith's in Poland, Ohio, a magnet will not stick to them. If the magnet sticks, they are real, and that MAY increase the chances on the reproducer. If the travel arm and support are reproduction, then I would wager the reproducer is also repro.

Was it represented as all original?

vic-b
Jeff
Wisconsin

[Raphael]

If you bought this from a private party, you may be better off. If you bought this from a dealer, or another collector who has other Zonophones, all bets are off.

The technical discussion of the original vs. newer reproducers was quite informative and valuable.

I'm curious, why would another collector or dealer (of which I am both), be less likely to properly represent an item? Or more likely to have a reproduction part?

Raphael

[vic-b]

First off, notice that my comment made know mention of dishonesty or intention to defraud a buyer. There are several variables in this. Most collectors of Zonophones have bought parts machines or complete machines to get the parts that they need to complete the machines that will stay in their collection. Unless you are going to simply "part out" the remains, selling off or trading a complete machine is desirable. This often times requires reproduction parts. Most often, this involves the Concert-V reproducer. This was easier when Mirek Stehlik was still making parts.

There may be some who do not feel obligated to divulge reproduction parts, unless the potential buyer actually asks. I do not think that this is the rule. Anyone who wants to remain credible will divulge. I always say what is repro and what is not, without being asked. A private collector may honestly not know. A dealer unfamiliar with Zonophones who has bought a large estate may not honestly know. In these cases, it is up to the buyer to know what they are getting into.

Clean Zonophones that are all original will always bring a premium to those who are looking for them. As many collectors just want "one" pristine Zonophone for their collection (because they display so well and are eye catchers) they rely on the expertise of who they are buying from.

As you can tell by this conversation about reproduction Concert-V reproducers, even those of us who have many Zonophones, and collected them for years can have trouble determining originality, especially with a reproducer that seems to have been "aged" very well.

So..., I was NOT impugning the integrity of anyone, if that was your concern. These reproducers are quite expensive (relatively)and hard to come by. We hold on to them when we find them. I actually need one right now!

Do you have an original Concert-V for sale?

Thanks,
Jeff
Wiscosnon
vic-b

[Raphael]

Jeff,

No, sorry, no Zonophone reproducers for sale, in fact I had to really scrounge around to find a repro a few months ago for one of my machines.

You answered my inquiry about the collector/dealer matter quite logically and I appreciate the thoughtful response.

And your earlier comments about original vs. repro travel arm & supports, etc., were informative as well, the first thing I did was to go and check all 9 of my Zonophones with a magnet!

cheers,
Raphael

[whitedogfive]

Thanks to all that replied and added you expertise to the subject. I bought this machine a few years ago and did not ask about repro parts as I did not know they were a factor. I was new at the hobby, so I bought the machine without any real knowledge, but I did not pay that much for it compared to what it was worth. I have since learned, that original Zonophones are quite rare, so I was looking to see if my reproducer was original or not. Even if it is not, it appears even the repro's are worth quite a bit of money. Again, thanks to all that contributed.

[TinfoilPhono]

If the travel arm and support are reproduction, then I would wager the reproducer is also repro.

While I definitely agree with that theory in principle, there are exceptions. I have an early Concert Grand (the style with two glass panels like an 'A', but 9" turntable and 30" horn). It was missing the tonearm and reproducer when I found it so I used a repro tonearm from the Smiths and a reproducer from Mirek (back when he was still selling them).

Since then, however, I found an original reproducer so I upgraded. I'm still looking for an original tonearm but that's even harder than a Concert V!

As a sidebar to all this, a little story: two years ago I went to the APS show in southern California. The night before the show I was talking with a friend about some parts I have in a drawer. One was the Mirek replica Concert V that I had replaced. I specifically mentioned that one to my friend, saying that it's silly to hang on to it. I'll never be buying another Zonophone, so for sure I have no need for it. I then decided that as soon as I returned home I'd put it up on eBay and put that money to better use.

The very next day at the show I found a stunning European coin-op Zonophone that was mostly original -- only the reproducer was wrong. It really needs a Concert V stamped "Made in USA" (I have seen a couple in collections) but for now the Mirek reproduction does the job neatly. Thank goodness I didn't listen to my own advice about clearing out extra parts! I would have been seriously kicking myself.

(Anyone have a 'Made in USA' version they'd like to sell??)

[jamiegramo]

If you bought this from a private party, you may be better off. If you bought this from a dealer, or another collector who has other Zonophones, all bets are off.

It the travel arm and travel arm support are reproductions from the Smith's in Poland, Ohio, a magnet will not stick to them. If the magnet sticks, they are real, and that MAY increase the chances on the reproducer. If the travel arm and support are reproduction, then I would wager the reproducer is also repro.

Was it represented as all original?

vic-b
Jeff
Wisconsin

Very helpful thread. Back in the 1970s it was common to get poor or rusted parts re-nickeled. I have a Zonophone here where the hardware has been replated, even the motor plate. I am trying to decide if this travel arm is a replated original or repro. It is magnetic, made from steel, and the 2 end pieces appear to be joined. I wonder if anyone could compare this to a known original of this type? Is the original cast as 1 piece of metal out of steel? This comes from a european machine so there may be a variations.
Thanks Jamie