Victor 7 Inch Records

[victorIIvictor]

Bill K (dutchman) wrote,

321 has a "6" scratched on the record at 9 o'clock and 321 scratched at the top.

353 has a "6" at 9 o'clock and "a353" scratched at the top

304 has a "3" at 9 o'clock and "a304" at the top

1168 has nothing other than the "1168" on the label. This record says "Victor Monarch" on the label

1175 has a "3" at 9 o'clock and 1175 at the top.

Hope this helps

Thanks very much! As I suspected, at least some of your records contain "takes" of these selections that EDVR (now DAHR, as Clay points out) is not aware of, and hence does not list. I would like to let them know, with your permission, unless you want to do it yourself.

Clay wrote, "According to the Collector's Guide to Victor Records, the matrix number only appeared physically on early Victors from April 1903 to March 1906…." Exactly, and that is why these early records show the matrix number in the runout. Most of them also show the take number at 9 o'clock, as do most Victor records until the company began recording using magnetic tape.

As Bill notes, all of his records show the release number "at the top" or at the 12 o'clock position. With these early records, the matrix number and the release number were the same number; that is what is meant by "Pre-matrix." EDVR calls these discs pre-matrix because, under Victor's later matrix system, the matrix number (which can show the date and location of a recording) and the catalog number are two different, unrelated numbers. Because Victor chose to move its matrix number information from the runout area to inside the label area after March 1906, as Clay points out, the matrix number is obliterated from commercially-issued Victor records because Victor ground the information away when they created their sunken label during pressing.

Clay presumed "that the "A-" is an editor's explanatory insertion that is not really there on the actual disc." No, the "A-" does appear on the actual disc, at least some of the time and presumably for some of the takes. I was so interested in Bill's records because, since the "A-" does NOT appear on the label, I assumed (correctly) that these were takes hereto for unknown to discographers.

Victor used the "A-" prefix on the matrix number (and on these early records, sometimes on the catalog number) to denote a seven-inch disc. Clay pointed out there was also a 10 inch black label issue bearing 321 with matrix B-276. Note that the catalog number and the matrix no longer correspond (so we are not "pre-matrix" any more), but also note that the "B-" prefix in the matrix number denotes a 10 inch disc. On acoustically-recorded Victors, the prefixes on matrix numbers were size indicators. A=7-inches, B=10 inches, C=12 inches, D= 14 inches, E= 8 inches, and some of these prefixes were carried on long into the 1950s. (This does not hold, however, for matrices Victor imported from the Gramophone Company).

Finally, Victor put the catalog number (which for Bill's records is also the matrix number) at the 12 o'clock position for single-sided issues. The catalog number appears at the 6 o'clock position for double sided issues. During the transition from single sided to double sided discs, you will often find the single-sided catalog number at 12 o'clock and the new double sided catalog number (often for the same performance) at 6 o'clock

To sum up, using the links to each record I provided in my earlier post:

For Victor 304, DAHR has Bill's take 3 listed, but is not aware that the number on the label on some issues appeared simply as "304."

For Victor 321, DAHR lists two different "take 1"s recorded on different dates (somebody made a mistake!), but is not aware of Bill's take 6, and it might be tricky to figure out when take 6 was recorded.

For Victor 353, DAHR lists take 1 and take 5, but is not aware of Bill's take 6, and so is also not aware that there was an issue where the number on the label appeared simply as "353."

For Victor Monarch 1168, DAHR lists take 1, take 2, and take 7 as issued. Bill's could be any one of these, or another take that DAHR is unaware of. The only way you could find out is to take those three records and Bill's and play them to compare.

For Victor 1175… er… I gave you the wrong link. Sorry! Here is the correct one:

http://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/o ... ictor_1175

… which shows that your take 3 was recorded on June 23, 1902.

That's a lot of new information for five discs! Thanks for providing it. Let me know if I may pass this on to the good folks at DAHR.

Best wishes, Mark

[Edisone]

According to Fagan & Moran's Victor discography, Take 6 of 321 was recorded June 19, 1902 - a date which appears to be scratched in the wax, although the 6 is hard to make out. Actually, the other "takes' listed here all appear in F&M's book, but the website lists only the takes known to be released. I think it's likely that Victor pulled out extra takes & issued them as soon as the stampers wore out.

Dutchman, can you make out the other writing in the label area of 321? Is anything visible on the other discs?

[dutchman]

Sorry for the delay in responding. Certainly the info can be passed along to DAHR.

I'll get out the magnifying glass and see what the writing is on 321 and get back to you.

Bill K

[dutchman]

Ok, 321 also has 6-19-02 scratched on the label under the dog. Cannot make out the writing regardless of the lighting. I'll keep trying.

[victorIIvictor]

Edisone, thanks for pointing out that these takes are in Fagan & Moran. I thought DAHR used in Fagan & Moran as a starting point, and so did not think to look there. I'm glad I held onto my copies! I will be sure to check their works and DAHR in the future.

It is strange because DAHR lists unissued takes on many other discs. I guess they are backlogged.

Bill, I will pass on this information to DAHR, but I too am interested to find out what else, if anything, you are able to read on your discs.

Best wishes, Mark

[dutchman]

Record 1168. Has 12-30-01 scratched on the label. The record also has Warblers scratched into the label with Souza scratched right below.