Edison Triumph D suddenly stopped tracking

[phonogfp]

Tony,

Yes, there must absolutely be some lateral play to the stylus of the reproducer in order to "find the groove." If the weight of your reproducer doesn't move quite freely from side-to-side, you'll get occasional skipping.

Of course, you should also be sure your record isn't damaged. No amount of tinkering with the phonograph will cure a hung groove!

George P.

[Schlick]

Thank you all for your generous and expert help ! ! !

Here are some pictures suggested earlier...

The Whole Thing!

Loosened the carriage clamp post (silver top-left) and twisted the carriage w.r.t. the half-nut mount (bottom-left)

Final Up (Change Record) position

Final Down (Play) position

Damaged threads at far right end of feed screw

I straightened the half-but spring bar (some one had bent it last night!)
I backed off the spring bar tension set screw.
I aligned the half-nut spring bar so threads on half-nut and threads on feed screw are parallel (by feel).
(As above) I twisted the half-nut mount w.r.t. the carriage so half-nut tensions its spring bar by about ⅛" when Down.
Oiled with motor oil (synthetic).

It's working right now - played one record all the way through - but seems right on the edge.
(I think I'll try a new half-nut? Where does one find those "really inexpensive" things?)

Thanks for reading all way down here!
-Michael

[Schlick]

(Still puzzled why it would play 'flawlessly' since July with electric pick-up and for at least a dozen records with "O" and then stop tracking altogether all of the sudden...)

[phonogfp]

Michael, I think I see your problem.

The crane is rotated slightly clockwise so the suspension is centered to the left of the mandrel rather than right in the middle. Be sure the crane is properly seated in the bracket, and that the rods are properly aligned.

Also - it doesn't affect the machine's playing, but just in case you don't already know, your Triumph Model D mechanism is mounted in a Triumph Model A cabinet. Not a big deal unless you want it as authentic as possible. The good news is that the original Model D-type cabinet was shared by the B, C, D,and E, and is relatively easy to find, while your Model A cabinet is harder to find.

Try giving that crane some attention and good luck!

George P.

[Schlick]

I apologize in advance if this is a silly "newbie" question as I never really looked at a cylinder player in any great detail. If Edison machines utilize a feed screw for the reproducer travel as I'm imagining it for the cylinder and disc players, as long as the feed screw or this half nut isn't damaged, is it possible to ever have a skipping record, or is there some play where the stylus could skip a damaged groove or two without simply "plowing through" the damaged area? The other concept I'm having a hard time with is how the record grooves "get aligned" so to speak with the feed screw so that the stylus is centered in the groove when the record is loaded and engaged. I'm picturing setting the stylus down and the feed screw somehow in a position with respect to the recording where the stylus isn't inside the groove but over a raised edge. There must be some lateral give and take on the stylus, correct?

I've ordered a copy of the Compleat Talking Machine book and it should be here any day, so hopefully no more of these questions

I tried to capture the stylus motion w.r.t. the reproducer and carriage during play. (Luckily it was not hard to find a wobbly record.) (Do QuickTime movies work well here?) -Michael

[Schlick]

Michael, I think I see your problem.

The crane is rotated slightly clockwise so the suspension is centered to the left of the mandrel rather than right in the middle. Be sure the crane is properly seated in the bracket, and that the rods are properly aligned.

Also - it doesn't affect the machine's playing, but just in case you don't already know, your Triumph Model D mechanism is mounted in a Triumph Model A cabinet. Not a big deal unless you want it as authentic as possible. The good news is that the original Model D-type cabinet was shared by the B, C, D,and E, and is relatively easy to find, while your Model A cabinet is harder to find.

Try giving that crane some attention and good luck!

George P.

George,

Good eye!

(That crane was one thing I tried last night - the bayonet style pins in the post that goes into the back-mount are supposed to slide down hill into proper position but it seems to regularly twist like shown in the photo. I hadn't noticed it had twisted again. I'll try cleaning the very rusty back-mount and perhaps a spot of oil.)

Yes, if my father were still alive he'd never let me hear the end of the "Franken-Phone." But as I was trying to pick one of his machines to save I knew I wanted a 2&4 min cyl (I couldn't 'afford' to keep his Idealia) and I've always enjoyed the Banners. He had some great Banner Standards with 2&4 min after-markets - one with beautiful pin striping! But I decided on a Triumph w/ a Music Master thinking I'd mistake it from across the room for the Idealia soon enough. I wanted an "every day driver" rather than a priceless heirloom. And since dad only had one 2 min Triumph and one 4 min, I traded for my model "D" with the banner stipulated as a preference. (The case was one time drilled for handles and subsequently filled. If we promise not to tell my dad, I might even screw Ilealia-esque handles on it too? )

In June 2013 I didn't even know there were 2 & 4 min cylinders! I'm learning more about phonographs now than I ever did growing up my whole life with 400+ of them! And I am comforted and very grateful there are men like you and the others on this board who still so selflessly give of their knowledge and wisdom!

Thank you all ! ! !

Michael Schlick

[RAK402]

Does the carriage slid easily on its bar?

I don't know if your carriage has a slider or a bearing where it contacts the straight edge. I had some skipping on my Standard, then cleaned and lubricated the bar and the straight edge and everything worked as it should.

[Chuck]

That's right. There's a very fine line between
having enough oil everywhere keeping everything
lubricated and working easily and smoothly, versus having
too much oil dripping around everywhere, getting on the
mandrel and records and making a big mess.

My own personal finding about this that a machine needs
to have enough oil everywhere so that all surfaces
are visibly wet, with some coating of oil.

In fact, one of my tests of any machine anywhere, be it
at a show or elsewhere, is to take a clean finger and
gently wipe some random surface, such as the sliding
edge that the carriage rests down against, or maybe
the carriage guide rod at the back of the machine.

If I don't come up with at least some tiny bit of oil
on my finger, the machine does not have enough oil on it.

These machines need to be run right up on the edge of
having too much oil and making a mess. Not quite that
much, but always fairly close to that amount of oil.

Again, this is all just my own preference.

Chuck

[edisonphonoworks]

I do think replacing the half nut will improve things, but sometimes the Triumph ones are harder to find. As far as the case goes. FK Babson, an Edison dealer was known to put machines together, circa 1910, and would have put a later model works in and early cabinet. So it may have always been like that, I don't think your Father would have a machine that was not so, he started collecting before they were even a collectors item, so most of them were from the original owners, or from original owners families.

[phonogfp]

As far as the case goes. FK Babson, an Edison dealer was known to put machines together, circa 1910, and would have put a later model works in and early cabinet. So it may have always been like that,

That's an interesting point. I'd be grateful to learn of the documentation or evidence of such activity on Babson's part.

George P.