C19 oil tubes, governor guard, and spring lube

[BwanaJoe]

Hello,

I just bought my first phonograph, a C19 originally purchased in 1921. It hasn't been looked after for decades so we are refurbishing it. I have a couple of question.

1) Should the wicks in the oil tubes be directly touching the shafts they are oiling?

2) The guard in front of the governor was bent toward the governor itself (there is an impact mark on the horn). Should it be completely vertical?

3) There wasn't any noise from the springs when I tested he machine. Should I put some new grease in there anyway per the service manual?

Thanks in advance.

Joe

[Victrolaboy]

Hi Joe,
Congratulations on your first phonograph!
The oil wick tubes should be lightly touching the shaft,
The governor guard should be vertical and not bent towards the governor,
And I suggest re-greasing the mainsprings. You need to take the springs out of the barrel and clean both the barrel and the mainsprings in a tub of gasoline or kerosine.
-Nick

[BwanaJoe]

Thanks Nick.

So you can't just take out the large screws in the side and add additional grease? My thought was, if it wasn't making any noise just renew the grease. Basically I didn't want to send out both motors for service since, from what I read, messing with Edison springs is dangerous.

[Victrolaboy]

I do not recommend just adding new grease because the old grease tends to dry up and the graphite contained in the grease will sort of crystallize and will start scratching the main springs which over time will eventually cause the spring to snap. If you try to re-grease the springs yourself, don't use molybdenum based grease you should only use lithium. I have found that molybdenum grease tends to grab the coils of a mainspring and this will cause thumping. Edison springs are not that hard to do. I'm 13 and I can install an Edison mainspring just fine on my own.
-Nick

[Victrolaboy]

Pm sent

[phonogfp]

Hi Joe,

Nick's advice is good advice for the long run, but if the mainsprings aren't making any noise, you may well not need to service them. (By the way, there's only one "motor" but two mainsprings.) I've had Diamond Disc machines in my collection for decades that haven't needed the mainsprings serviced. On one or two occasions over the years, I've added about a teaspoon of light machine oil (never Three-In-One) through the plug in the spring barrel to cure minor power surges by softening the original spring grease. I've collected for 47 years and replaced dozens of mainsprings for myself and others, but I've never had to replace a Diamond Disc mainspring. That's just my experience...your mileage may vary.

To reiterate: Nick's advice cannot be faulted, but don't let it scare you off. The governor, bearings, and gears should definitely be cleaned/lubricated, but if the mainsprings are causing no trouble, you don't need to tackle them right away. (There's a C-250 I've owned for 36 years and I'm still waiting for mainspring trouble!)

Good luck and have fun with it!

George P.

[VintageTechnologies]

I think you might receive a lot of conflicting opinions about servicing the springs, but here is my two cents worth. I began collecting in 1966 and have played a lot of machines as-is without re-greasing the springs unless I had to. If you can wind the springs reasonably tight and play 2 or 3 records without slowing down and without hearing any rumbles or thumps as the coils unwind, then the springs may be slippery enough. In 48 years, I have had only two springs break, and that did not happen while winding. Those spring thumping noises would signal the need for more lubricant. Then try squirting a mixture of vaseline mixed with graphite flakes into the spring barrels. I suggest that lube mixture to hopefully match what we assume is the original grease in there now. Even pure vaseline may suffice. If the vaseline injection does not quiet the thumping, then you should have someone disassemble the springs for a complete cleaning and lubrication. I personally use black moly/lithium grease, available at any auto parts store in one pound cans, and have been entirely satisfied with it.

[gramophone78]

I've been collecting for "too long"... and I would have to say, if a spring (s) are not making any noise....leave them. As they say...."if it an't broke, don't fix it". That's just from my years of experience.

[Victrolaboy]

Hi Joe,

Nick's advice is good advice for the long run, but if the mainsprings aren't making any noise, you may well not need to service them. (By the way, there's only one "motor" but two mainsprings.) I've had Diamond Disc machines in my collection for decades that haven't needed the mainsprings serviced. On one or two occasions over the years, I've added about a teaspoon of light machine oil (never Three-In-One) through the plug in the spring barrel to cure minor power surges by softening the original spring grease. I've collected for 47 years and replaced dozens of mainsprings for myself and others, but I've never had to replace a Diamond Disc mainspring. That's just my experience...your mileage may vary.

To reiterate: Nick's advice cannot be faulted, but don't let it scare you off. The governor, bearings, and gears should definitely be cleaned/lubricated, but if the mainsprings are causing no trouble, you don't need to tackle them right away. (There's a C-250 I've owned for 36 years and I'm still waiting for mainspring trouble!)

Good luck and have fun with it!
George P.

George,
I guess I've just had bad luck with mainsprings in my six years of collecting, I've already had a couple of mainsprings break from dried grease, and trust me the noise it makes when that happens is not very pleasant at all. I do not get scared very easily, but when I had a mainspring break from dried grease it left me shaking for several minutes after it happened.
Guess I'm a little paranoid from a bad experience. And like gramophone78 said "if it ain't broke don't fix it" he obviously knows what he's talking about and same thing with everyone else here. You have been collecting 41 years longer than me (I know this because you once mentioned that you have been collecting for 47 years) and that's great that you have not had any mainspring trouble. So my suggestion was just what I always do no matter what (because I'm paranoid something might happen again). I Hope nothing I said sounded like I was being a smart a**.
-Nick

[phonogfp]

George,
I guess I've just had bad luck with mainsprings in my six years of collecting, I've already had a couple of mainsprings break from dried grease, and trust me the noise it makes when that happens is not very pleasant at all. I do not get scared very easily, but when I had a mainspring break from dried grease it left me shaking for several minutes after it happened.
Guess I'm a little paranoid from a bad experience. And like gramophone78 said "if it ain't broke don't fix it" he obviously knows what he's talking about and same thing with everyone else here. You have been collecting 41 years longer than me (I know this because you once mentioned that you have been collecting for 47 years) and that's great that you have not had any mainspring trouble. So my suggestion was just what I always do no matter what (because I'm paranoid something might happen again). I Hope nothing I said sounded like I was being a smart a**.
-Nick

You've said nothing smart-a**ed at all, Nick! As I wrote before, your advice is good, but those who lack your experience might be scared off. As long as there's no thumping or power surges, let's get him hooked but good before laying the really mess stuff on him!

Also, don't for a moment believe that I have "...not had any mainspring trouble." As I wrote before, I've replaced many, many of them. I've had a number of them break. I know that sound well, and it's indeed unpleasant. I can't remember what it was, but something let loose once during the night in my boyhood room while I was asleep. I can tell you I hit the floor immediately!

Keep up the good work!

George P.