Oak vs. Mahogany

[FloridaClay]

Joe, a clear shot of the inside of the lid, where the finish is somewhat protected, would offer the best basis for deciding what the original finish was.

Clay

[BwanaJoe]

Joe, a clear shot of the inside of the lid, where the finish is somewhat protected, would offer the best basis for deciding what the original finish was.

Clay

Here ya go. The door had been locked for decades because they lost the key so I included that shot as well.

[phonogfp]

Joe,

I agree that your C-19 looks like Golden Oak.

The catalog on eBay is no earlier than August 1922. I couldn't see a date on it, but 1922-23 would be a good guess.

George P.

[FloridaClay]

One of those very rare cases when I may disagree with George. Sure looks like fumed oak to me. Too much of the grayish overtones for golden, even considering the passage of time.

Clay

[phonogfp]

Clay! You cut me to the quick!

I don't consider myself an expert on wood finishes, but the dark brown open grain and the gloss suggests Golden Oak to me. Just my opinion, though!

George P.

[FloridaClay]

Well, one always hesitates to disagree with the master of all thing phonographic.

Clay

[Cody K]

Could be either, I think, especially given the way time tends to darken oak, though I'd be inclined to agree with Clay.

My friend, a furniture builder, recently made some tests fuming oak. We're working on an open-ended project of designing and making a new phonograph using orphaned parts that I have in my workroom. All of the squares started with the same piece of oak. These were done using ordinary household ammonia rather than the industrial-strength stuff Edison or Victor would have used. The first picture shows, in order, squares treated for one, two, four, eight, and twenty-four hours. Stronger ammonia would of course produce more dramatic results, but even with the household stuff, you can start to see significant darkening after twenty-four hours, and a longer time would continue to darken the wood. I think I read somewhere that the Stickley crafters fumed their oak for three days or more, producing the deep black/brown that their work is known for. I don't know how long the phonograph makers would have fumed their oak, but it seems to me that variance in length of fuming time, as well as variations in the grain of the natural wood, might produce a cabinet like Joe's.

The second pic shows just the four, eight, and twenty-four hour squares.

[FloridaClay]

Yes, it is the fuming that makes those dramatic tone differences in the grain--a reaction between the ammonia and the tannin in the wood from what I have read. I rather like it, although I guess it has somewhat fallen out of fashion now.

Clay

[gramophone78]

Yes, it is the fuming that makes those dramatic tone differences in the grain--a reaction between the ammonia and the tannin in the wood from what I have read. I rather like it, although I guess it has somewhat fallen out of fashion now.

Clay

You are correct Clay about the tannin. However, American white oak that was "fumed" was quarter cut. It was this cut that produced the "Tiger" effect they were striving for.
Household ammonia is really not going to give the same effect. It is simpley not condensed enough.

Raw broads were placed into large canvass tents. In these tents were large vats of very condensed ammonia.

The art was knowing when to remove the boards. This was a trade secret.

Once the raw boards are removed the grain is now raised up from the reaction. So, sanding and finishing comes next.

One of the biggest problems with this product was the loss/waste involved from cutting the tree this way.

Therefore as the white oak supply was drying up......the cost was becoming unattractive. By the late 20's the whole style was also out of favor.

Also, it is said the average life span of a fumier was under 30 years of age.

Much like the gold wash platters of the time using mercury (another lost art). virtually impossible to replicate today.

Another issue was repair issues. Even in the day, a Victor dealer would ask the dealer to return a damaged "fumed" machine back to the factory in order to restore.

There was no "fumed" finish repair kit sent to dealers like the other finishes. The same repair problem applied to the Vernus Martin finish

There are some in the trade that have tried to replicate the original effect by brushing ammonia onto raw wood and then sealing into a bag. However, as a A & C collector......I have never seen it look close to the original. It is also extremely difficult (almost impossible) to find quartered oak boards of the size used today and if you do.....$$$$$.

[PeterF]

I've had some success with smaller pieces by taking a large black yardwaste or garbage bag, setting up a supporting frame inside to open up the space, then placing the oak pieces on stands inside, with tin pie plates filled with strongest ammonia set on the bottom of the bag. Place this outside in the sun, sealed of course. After a day they are nice and dark. Grain does raise though.