Advice about Cylinder Phonographs

[winsleydale]

Recently I have started a few threads regarding my intent to purchase an Edison cylinder phonograph. While I had originally planned on simply finding a machine, a few wonderful people on the forum have enlightened me to the fact that I don't really actually know what I am looking for. What my goal is, is to have a 2/4 minute machine that more or less doesn't need me to try and fix it, the appropriate reproducers, and then I want to be able to record, as well. Ideally, I would have a 2 and a 4 minute recorder; however, I understand that 4 minute recorders are super-rare and realistically, I will probably never find one. So, my questions are as follows:

-What is the best kind of phonograph for recording?

-How do I tell it apart from other cylinder machines?

-How can I tell if a machine has a 2/4 minute capability just by looking at it?

-What kinds of problems are common, that I should ask the seller about?

-Can I record through a reproducing horn, or do I need a special one?

-Lastly, how much should I expect to spend on a decent, working machine that at least has a reproducer with it, assuming the case and paint are in average condition, nothing special?

Thanks in advance!

[victorIIvictor]

To give you some idea of the price of a good machine, I purchased this Edison Standard Model D from Jerry Blais

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... d+D#p91723

… and I couldn't be more happy with it! As you can see, it is a 2-minute/4 minute player. One thing Jerry didn't mention in his posted description was that he replaced the pot metal bearing with a brass one. The original pot metal bearings on these have a tendency to swell with age, freezing up the mechanism. But there are posts here in the Tips and Tricks section of the forum on how to deal with that, if you're up for it.

Note that this machine I bought only came with a 4-minute reproducer. You could give yourself a big head start in your search by purchasing George Frow's Edison Cylinder Companion, which I'm pretty sure it is out of print in its physical book form, but turns up on eBay. It has also been reissued as an iTunes digital book in an enhanced addition. Search for "Mulholland Press" for more details. This book will tell you about which machines came with 2 minute/4 minute playing capacity, which reproducers go with which machines (so you don't buy a Model O to use with your Edison Standard, like I did), and describes the various recording apparati as well.

Best wishes, Mark

[winsleydale]

Fantastic! That's great news. Jerry has actually been PMing me about his machines, as well. I'm trying to snag this guy (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Edison-Cylinder ... 1249114961) for under 250, and if that falls through, well, Jerry and I will have to talk some more! Is it generally correct to assume that a big giant gearbox on the topside of the bedplate means it plays both lengths of cylinder?

[gramophone78]

As Mark has already touched on.....books are the best material you can invest in to learn all the questions you ask.

Frow's book would be a great choice on Edison models and also Eric Reiss' book "The Complete Talking Machine".

In any field of collecting.....patience is the key to getting what you seek.

Dealing with a reputable dealer (like Jerry or others) is another way to achieve your dream machine with minimal risk.

Guys like Jerry have been involved in this hobby for years and will be able to help.

I would certainly consider this route over buying from a unknown on Ebay.

[winsleydale]

You're right, and I have this fear that I will almost definitely regret a decision to go somewhere else. Best stick by them what knows, I guess. Time to revise my strategy.

[gramophone78]

You're right, and I have this fear that I will almost definitely regret a decision to go somewhere else. Best stick by them what knows, I guess. Time to revise my strategy.

Please don't get me (or any of us) wrong. I'm certain we have all made decision's in our collecting we regret along the way. I know I have.... . The advent of the internet, forums,etc....are great advantages most of us never had.

[winsleydale]

I've been down the bad decision road already... I guess they're called Crapophones?

[Lucius1958]

Fantastic! That's great news. Jerry has actually been PMing me about his machines, as well. I'm trying to snag this guy (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Edison-Cylinder ... 1249114961) for under 250, and if that falls through, well, Jerry and I will have to talk some more! Is it generally correct to assume that a big giant gearbox on the topside of the bedplate means it plays both lengths of cylinder?

If you look at the left side of the gearbox, you can see the knurled knob that changes the speed. The machine is a Model B, which was later upgraded to 2/4 minute operation...

As for recorders: 2 minute recorders are fairly easy to come by, but 4 minute versions are pretty scarce. It might be possible to use a glass rod about .021" diameter, and mount that with a holder on a 2 minute diaphragm: but finding 4 minute blanks is another story. These were made of a different, harder composition than the usual brown wax blanks...

Bill

[winsleydale]

I hadn't even thought about the blanks being any different. Is it possible to get more time from a cylinder simply by recording and playing back at a lower rpm?

[De Soto Frank]

I hadn't even thought about the blanks being any different. Is it possible to get more time from a cylinder simply by recording and playing back at a lower rpm?

Technically, "yes". But with caveats.

International Correspondence Schools ( ICS ) did just this with their various "Language cylinders", to get more material on a given cylinder.

Generally speaking, the faster the speed of the recording medium moves past the stylus, the better the fidelity / quality of the recording. By the early 1900's, the recording industry had settled on 160 rpm as the "ideal speed" for cylinders, and 78-80 rpm for discs.

If one is recording only speech, a slower recording / play-back speed can be tolerated.


I grew-up during the age of the Long-Playing vinyl record ( LP ), and the 4-speed "changer" player, which offered the following speeds: 78 - 45 - 33 - 16 rpm.

I always wondered " what is that 16 rpm speed for " ?

It wasn't until I was out of college that I learned that the 16 rpm speed was used for special "talking book" records.

( If you have access to a reel-to-reel tape recorder that has multiple speeds - 1-⅞" - 3-¾" - 7-½" IPS - you can experiment with recording at different speeds: try recording the same music track at the 3 speeds, and comparing the results... )


For specific information about home recording on cylinders, I suggest you look-up Shawn Borri ( Edison Phono Works ? )...

Shawn has done great work recreating the "wax" recipe for Edison's brown-wax cylinders, as well as rediscovering and implementing the early recording process... you can learn a lot about all this from his web-site.

I believe I have read that the "best" machines for home recordings are Edison "Triumph", followed by the "Home". The smaller machines do not have as strong a motor and I have read they do not record as well.


If you're "only going to have one cylinder machine" for a while, I would shoot for a "Triumph" or "Home", preferably with 2&4 minute gearing.

The "Standards" are nice little machines, and entirely adequate for play-back, but might be a little underpowered for recording ? ( This is based on comments from TMF and some books. )

"Gems" are cute, but are primarily collectibles, as opposed to work-horse play-back machines.

2-minute brown-wax format are generally regarded as the most practical / successful format for home-recordings.


I'm going to defer to others to suggest pricing...

If you get a machine from Jerry B., I don't think you'll be disappointed - he has a great reputation here.


My 2-cents...



(PS: For what it's worth, my very first cylinder machine, after much book reading and internet research, was a 1907 Edison "Home" B, with 2 & 4 minute gearing, "C" two-minute and "H" four-minute reproducers, Edison two-minute recorder, 14-inch black & brass "witches-hat" and 10-inch "cone" horns, and four shaved brown-wax cylinders. I got this from an established dealer on the West Coast, and am generally quite satisfied with this outfit. I paid around $700 for everything in 2007. Most folks here will probably say that was a bit high, but I got a "complete, ready-to-run" outfit, that needs no cosmetic attention. Since then, I have acquired two more "Homes" and two "Standards", but haven't done any home recording yet .

Looking for a 30-inch "recording horn"... straight "cone", no flared bell. )