Victor License Labels?

[phonogfp]

Crikey... Even the same page numbers. It would appear that the price was arbitrarily changed with no alteration of the machine.

I'm going to guess that $105.00 was the original price, then it was lowered to $100.00. Otherwise, it would have started at $100.00, been raised to $105.00, then dropped back to $100.00. That seems unlikely, but who can tell?

George P.

[gramophone78]

Crikey... Even the same page numbers. It would appear that the price was arbitrarily changed with no alteration of the machine.

I'm going to guess that $105.00 was the original price, then it was lowered to $100.00. Otherwise, it would have started at $100.00, been raised to $105.00, then dropped back to $100.00. That seems unlikely, but who can tell?

George P.

No kidding.... . Now the other issue regarding this catalog is.....all the prices are slightly higher. For example, the Vic.V is $55. In the last $100 catalog....the Vic.V is $50. 1 thru 6 are all slightly higher in price.

Both catalogs are exactly the same, from end to end save the price.

Both catalogs also have the following models: Monarch Junior, Monarch Special and model "Z".

So, either the prices went up or they went down in a very short period of time..... .

[phonogfp]

With the prices higher on each machine, it really begins to look like a "west of the Rockies" price difference.

Your $105.00 Victor VI may have come from New York to you, but unless there's a solid provenance for the machine for its entire life, there's no telling where it was originally purchased.

I've learned a lot today - thanks!

George P.

[gramophone78]

With the prices higher on each machine, it really begins to look like a "west of the Rockies" price difference.

Your $105.00 Victor VI may have come from New York to you, but unless there's a solid provenance for the machine for its entire life, there's no telling where it was originally purchased.

I've learned a lot today - thanks!

George P.

Your very welcome. I did too. By the way, the two catalogs are in NY.... . I know that means nothing... .

Most companies stipulated a price difference based on geography in catalog's.

I have seen many catalog's reference shipping increases "West of the Rockies".....like, Berliner, but not on the retail price of the item.

There is also the possibility there was a downward price adjustment.. .

The owner of the two catalogs feels they could be a month or so apart.

I just wish Victor dated these catalog's like they did their record catalog's.... .

[gramophone78]

That re-sale label is kind of interesting. My Dad's step grandmother owned the Victor dealership here in the town I live in and her son Bill lived to be almost 100 and died in the 1980's. Bill told me that his mother RARELY sold a machine they took in on trade and that Victor really didn't like them doing that anyway. It made much more sense to sell something new rather than flood the market with used stuff. They also had pretty tight licensing agreements before that lawsuit in 1917 and so I suppose that's where some of this stuff fits in. Dad and Bill both would laugh about all the record players they took in on trade once radio got going big.

My Dad said when he was a kid he helped bust up the cabinets and put them in the furnace to heat the store with and all the brass & iron went to the junk yard. Maybe that thing was sent back to the factory to be re-conditioned. Estey did that with organs. Bill told me that they did that sometimes with a decent chapel organ that came in on trade. It makes sense with the higher end stuff that they might do that. If they had the money to buy a VI they probably had the money to get a XVI when they decided they wanted to upgrade. And your machine wasn't very old it looks like, when that happened.

I would like to comment on what you wrote and reiterate something I brought up earlier in this thread.

What we do know about this machine is.... it was "traded in" and resold by a Victor dealer at a later date (post 1909).

This means a dealer probably had (or could order) a current Vic.VI with a quiet spiral drive motor, wood or brass flower horn and Exhibition sound box all for a retail price of $100.

So, in order to make this now used machine attractive and up to date enough to sell..... the paper mache horn, #10 sound box were replaced with a wood spear tip, exhibition sound box and a light polishing and given a $100 price tag.
I guess it did sell and not end up back at the Victor factory or in a bonfire....

It than survived two world war scrape drives AND the depression.
Boy, has it had a life.... .

[phonogfp]

So, in order to make this now used machine attractive and up to date enough to sell..... the paper mache horn, #10 sound box were replaced with a wood spear tip, exhibition sound box and a light polishing and given a $100 price tag.

I don't want to beat this horse dead, but that's not what the Second Hand License says. The VTMCo. would have had no problem with the dealer selling the Victor VI for the then-current $100.00 price. But the Second Hand License allowed the dealer "...to sell said machine at a less price than above noted." Victor didn't care what the dealer sold the second-hand machine for, but stipulated that the dealer could not advertise it. Consult Bob Baumbach's books again and see what he says about this.

George P.

[gramophone78]

So, in order to make this now used machine attractive and up to date enough to sell..... the paper mache horn, #10 sound box were replaced with a wood spear tip, exhibition sound box and a light polishing and given a $100 price tag.

I don't want to beat this horse dead, but that's not what the Second Hand License says. The VTMCo. would have had no problem with the dealer selling the Victor VI for the then-current $100.00 price. But the Second Hand License allowed the dealer "...to sell said machine at a less price than above noted." Victor didn't care what the dealer sold the second-hand machine for, but stipulated that the dealer could not advertise it. Consult Bob Baumbach's books again and see what he says about this.

George P.

Thanks George, I will review Bob's book on this. It was explained to me as I wrote above by another collectors years ago.

I wonder what "advertise" meant...??. Dealers could not place a price tag on the machine while in the store or run an ad in the local newspaper or..???. Interesting.

I will review and see what I find.

[Starkton]

Well, George & Stephan......this gets interesting now..... . No, I did not photo shop this... .

Undated Victor Catalog.gif

Great source, which provides much for us to learn! We can derive from this that your machine had a Japanese horn and was really called "Improved Victor VI" at the beginning. You must now withdraw the claim that the price tag of $105 only refers to machines equipped with the Victor No. 10 sound box.

With reference to the serial number, noted on the second hand license, I am surprised that Victor delivered at least 1643 Victor VI in the first few weeks!

[gramophone78]

Well, George & Stephan......this gets interesting now..... . No, I did not photo shop this... .

Undated Victor Catalog.gif

Great source, which provides much for us to learn! We can derive from this that your machine had a Japanese horn and was really called "Improved Victor VI" at the beginning. You must now withdraw the claim that the price tag of $105 only refers to machines equipped with the Victor No. 10 sound box.

With reference to the serial number, noted on the second hand license, I am surprised that Victor delivered at least 1643 Victor VI in the first few weeks!

How can anyone do that when we have no date to go by...??. We still don't know if there is an earlier catalog or whether the price was raised or lowered during these catalog's.

Are you still of the impression the "horn" is the reason for the "$5" extra price...??. I am of the opinion the horn has been ruled out as the reason.

The word "improved"still bothers me as it makes one think of a previous version. However, I am starting to think the word was merely used as sales hype.

Also the claim regarding the #10 and $105 is not mine, but is written in two very well respected Phonograph books by Bob Baumbach.

I will see what else is discovered first, before I make any further determination.

[Starkton]

How can anyone do that when we have no date to go by...??. We still don't know if there is an earlier catalog or whether the price was raised or lowered during these catalog's.

You are right. I think I was too enthusiastic after this source showed up.

At least we now know with certainty that a $105 price tag doesn't necessarily mean that a Victor 10 reproducer came with the machine. It would have been very helpful for the discussion if Mr. Baumbach had identified his sources.