General question about Vic O horns

[JerryVan]

More,

[jboger]

DrGregC and jerryVan: Thanks for the photos and the posts. I've actually gotten down to the original paint on my horn. It's a darker yellow than the one that you posted more of a brown. How do I know that it's original? Because I found the decal. So mine was overpainted first with a bright yellow and then with the bright red. I think we should call this color Grey Poupon or Dijon mustard.

[DrGregC]

There are experts with far more experience than myself, but every original Victor O horn I have seen has been... yellow. Not peach, not brown. I guess everyone wants their machine to be an original.

I suspect that any highly pigmented color will somewhat change over time due to environmental conditions such as light, heat, humidity, etc. For example, JerryVan's horn has more of a gloss or sheen than mine. Neither shows any sign of red accent paint. I was told years ago that the red paint was very unstable and naturally faded over time with exposure to light. I don't think my horn ever had red paint, but at Jerry B's suggestion, I will check in the elbow. It is my recollection that yellow was the only color on my horn.

[gramophone78]

DrGregC and jerryVan: Thanks for the photos and the posts. I've actually gotten down to the original paint on my horn. It's a darker yellow than the one that you posted more of a brown. How do I know that it's original? Because I found the decal. So mine was overpainted first with a bright yellow and then with the bright red. I think we should call this color Grey Poupon or Dijon mustard.

As explained in your previous thread....your horn has been painted over at least twice based on the pics you posted. It is a candidate for restoration...not conservation.

The reason I say this is.....the horn was more than likely repainted because the original paint finish became unsightly and worn with age.

The original yellow..oops sorry, I mean mustard yellow does not seem to hold up very well with time.

Even finding the remnants of the original mustard yellow could prove to be of little use. Paints that have been covered by other paints (especially reds) can discolor/stain the base paint due to a chemical reaction.

You have been shown many examples of the original color. Now, you need to show this color to a paint expert and have them spray it for you or some places can mix and place in a spray bomb for you to do.

I would recommend the paint you use to be in a semi-gloss finish.

As mentioned by DrGregC, many of these surviving examples are not overly glossy. It will also give the finish an older appearance.

Add a couple of Gregg Cline's decals and you will have a winner to go with your restored case.

In the end, you will have a very nice restored original "looking" machine to enjoy... .

[JerryVan]

"jboger",

Can you show a photo of your Dijon color sample?

[JerryVan]

In the long run, even if your horn had a more brownish hue, the overwhelming majority of original "O" horns look like mine and Dr. Greg's and everyone else's. If you want to match the Dijon color you've found, it is certainly your prerogative to do so. However, you will spend the majority of the time you own this machine defending your color choice and will ultimately have to sell it for less, should you decide to part with it. (I once knew a guy with a VERY purple antique car who would agree with me.)

[jboger]

I guess I got some splaining to do. But before that, I don't want to upload any pictures yet because even though I got ~80% of the exterior of the horn down to the original paint, it still looks like crap (I had a different word in mind). So I want to continue cleaning it before I post any pictures. When I do, I will post them on the original Vic O thread.

A couple of things. Yes, everyone wants his or her machine to be original. True for me too. But that's not what I'm about here. And yes I know the difference between restoration and conservation. My machine has had a hard life. It will always be a repaired machine. I knew that from the git-go. That being said, I still want to do right by this machine, which to me means to conserve as much as possible.

Let's come to the horn. I have stripped wood of paint. I have carefully removed alligatored shellac from antique furniture. I have even re-amalgamated old shellac on an early 19th C bureau. This horn had multiple layers of paint. Given that I would more than probably have to entirely strip the darn thing, I had nothing to lose and might learn something. I asked myself, given the solvents available at my hardwood store, could I learn to remove each layer of paint and see what is "down there"? I tried several solvents and found that acetone removed the red paint, an enamel I think similar to Testor's paints, which are soluble in acetone. The acetone did not seem to attach the yellow paint or at least not as quickly. To me that was interesting. Using ordinary acetone, I was able to remove the red paint and expose the yellow layer, which as I learned from this forum was not original. I could see that there was some sort of brown layer underneath the yellow.

I'm not in any hurry, so I thought I would try to remove at least some of the yellow to see if what was underneath was original. I tried several solvents. None of them worked. A slow acting paint remover--formulated for latex paint not available when the horn was painted--seemed to soften the yellow paint without attacking the undercoating. I continued to work with that.

Maybe this sort of exercise is not of interest to everyone. That I can surely understand. I am sure many people would ask why am I wasting all this time on a machine that will never amount to anything. It's precisely because I have nothing to lose with this horn that I have worked on it. Now I want to see how far I can go with it. That is, if I really clean up this horn and get rid of all that yellow and red paint, what would it look like? Probably like crap. But that's not the point. It what I learn from this exercise--and the input from all of you--that has motivated me.

I don't know about you guys, but I've learned a lot from this exercise. I hope some of it carries over to some other project I work on, not necessarily a talking machine.

Anyway I propose a new set of adjectives: Dijon mustard yellow, grey poupon yellow, Coleman's mustard yellow, even French's mustard yellow if you have a really bright yellow horn.

[jboger]

Haven't had much time to work on the horn or the rest of the machine. Have removed more of the paint, but the original paint was badly deteriorated. I will eventually take a photo so people can see the color.

In the meantime I do have a question. How was the horn attached to the elbow? I would say obviously a metal screw but I though I'd ask the experts just to be sure.

The machine originally came with an Exhibition reproducer with the needle thumbscrew broken off. I've rebuilt the reproducer with new gaskets and mica. If I attach the horn, then there's no reason why I can't crank the darn thing up and hear it.

John

[JerryVan]

To my knowledge, the horn attaches to the elbow the same way any Victor horn does. There is, or should be, a rivet in the portion of the horn that slips into the elbow. The head of this rivet engages in a helical slot in the elbow. Once engaged, a small twist of the horn screws it in tight.

[jboger]

Jerry: Thanks for answering my question. I thought I was asking a dumb question. I thought it obviously had a screw to hold it down. So now I know all it has left is a hole where the rivet went. I thought that was a screw hole.