Earliest Zonophone?

[Starkton]

I think the quotation from Owen's correspondence leaves little to be desired. He continues: "We cannot see how Frank Sieman [sic] [...] can win at the game he is playing as [...] the prices which he is preparing will be beaten, and his trade lost if it comes to a question of necessary competition." Why are you still sceptical about the idea that genuine Zonophones were sold before 1900?

I believe the June 1899 issue of The Phonoscope states that the Universal Talking Machine, „have started a large factory [...] where they employ about forty people, making Gramophones under the name of Zonophones [...]. [T]hey are rushing machines through for the fall business and expect to be able to commence deliveries about September 15th." This date fits nicely to the reported arrival of Zonophones in Europe.

[AllenKoe]

Why are you still sceptical about the idea that genuine Zonophones were sold before 1900?

This (excerpted) letter of Owen's from Nov 1899 leaves a LOT to be desired, Stephan (imho).

What does Owen mean by "Zonophone" here? Why does he use the term in such a vague and general sense? Why do you insist that THE Zonophone is arriving in England in any quantity at all?

Certainly Seaman was discounting BERLINERS (machines) - even in the US - at $18. (in 1899), while calling them Zonophones.

As far as I can tell, there were NO Valiquet Zonophones for regular sale in 1899 (in the US or England). If there were, we would expect to see some reference to Model types, prices, etc. Do you see what I am driving at? If they indeed had "arrived' (as Owen seems to say), where are the shop ads, brochures, etc? Did they intend to keep their arrival top secret from the shops and the public?

Allen

[gramophone78]

I believe the June 1899 issue of The Phonoscope states that the Universal Talking Machine, „have started a large factory [...] where they employ about forty people, making Gramophones under the name of Zonophones [...]. [T]hey are rushing machines through for the fall business and expect to be able to commence deliveries about September 15th." This date fits nicely to the reported arrival of Zonophones in Europe.

I believe this is what is being referred to:

Phonoscope June 1899 Page 13.jpg (230.75 KiB) Viewed 1671 times

However, by Nov. 1899 this is written in the financial report. Clearly, their June expectations were "handicapped" and by Nov. were still only selling "Improved Gramophone's" at a reduced price of $18.

Phonoscope Nov. 1899.jpg (92.23 KiB) Viewed 1671 times

[Starkton]

This is from the suit to restrain the National Gramophone Corporation from the use of the word “Gramophone.” – [...] Since October, 1899, Frank Seaman has not ordered [...] any gramophones, and that the National Gramophone Corporation since that date has been selling to the public talking machines which infringe the Berliner Gramophone patents, manufactured by the Universal Talking Machine Company, and styled “Zonophones.” (New York Tribune, June 11, 1900) [My emphasis]

[AllenKoe]

Since October, 1899, Frank Seaman has not ordered [...] any gramophones, and that the National Gramophone Corporation since that date has been selling to the public talking machines which infringe the Berliner Gramophone patents, manufactured by the Universal Talking Machine Company, and styled “Zonophones.” (New York Tribune, June 11, 1900) [My emphasis]

I see that you are citing the June 11, 1900 issue of the NY Tribune. What is the date of the actual suit that is being referenced?

This is another example of blind repetition in that period, with no supporting evidence (from real ads) that the "offending" Valiquet Zonophone is actually on sale (in Oct 1899 or so).

In support of my point, please look at the Feb 17, 1900 Financial Statement of NGCorp in which they themselves say that the "new" models have been delayed and that the "old" models (aka Berliners) were being sold off for $18. Do you find their statement unclear in some way? What are they "hiding"?

Other than the 2 vaporware ads of Fred Prescott, each appearing one time on the back cover of the Mar and Nov 1899 Phonoscope, can you show ANY flyer, brochure, or ad in real time which actually shows or offers the Valiquet Zonophone for sale (in 1899), with models and/or current prices? And the 2 Prescott ads simply show models which are NOT known to exist - i.e. they are prototypes. I will venture to say that a search for a dated 1899 ad for the Valiquet machine will prove impossible.

Allen

[Starkton]

I think a great misunderstanding is underlying the whole discussion.

From October 1899, Seaman had no access to Johnson's Berliner gramophones to "sell them off". Therefore he had to make sure that the supply for the most important Christmas trade didn't stop. There can be no doubt that the Zonophone of autumn 1899, manufactured and delivered by the Universal Talking Machine Co. from their own factory under the supervision of Valiquet, strongly resembled Berliner's gramophone. I think nobody claims that it included important features of the 1900 models. Similar (or even identical) to Berliner's gramophone or not, contemporary sources strongly indicate that Zonophones (call them "old models") were built and sold at this early date. Perhaps we can agree on this.

The suit, the Berliner Gramophone Company, of Philadelphia, and the United States Gramophone Company, of Washington vs. the National Gramophone Corporation, was opened just before the date of issue of the New-York Tribune.

[AllenKoe]

There can be no doubt that the Zonophone of autumn 1899, manufactured and delivered by the Universal Talking Machine Co. from their own factory under the supervision of Valiquet, strongly resembled Berliner's gramophone.

Do you (we) or anyone else, have a picture of this supposed machine from late autumn of 1899?

If UTMCo was selling them to everyone under the sun (although omitted from the 1899 year's Financial Statement), why doesn't ANY collector have it, or why is there NO brochure or flyer or catalog actually SHOWING it?

This ("Valiquet" Zonophone or other such imitation) from Oct - Dec 1899) is vaporware. How can you say that it "resembled" anything if you haven't seen it anywhere? Are you perhaps making an assumption?

Allen

[Starkton]

Then tell me where Seaman got his gramophones from October 1899 if he didn't manufacture it himself.

[AllenKoe]

This notice about the new model appeared on May 22, 1900, in regard to the NEW Zonophone being substituted for the Gramophone, in the "Statesman."

Allen

[AllenKoe]

Then tell me where Seaman got his gramophones from October 1899 if he didn't manufacture it himself.

Seaman, wouldn't you agree, was the ultimate advertising genius. He alone was able to launch the Berliner Gramophone, from the very beginning (Oct 1896).

If Seaman were actually selling the Valiquet Zonophone, starting in Oct of 1899, why would he keep it a commercial secret? He runs no ads for it which show the new model. He prints no catalogs or flyers or brochures.

That is the question that should be asked, not other people's constant references to Seaman "selling" an infringing machine in the autumn of 1899. They may be referring to Seaman's penchant for discounting. WHERE is the actual machine?

If he was really having it manufactured, and sold, why didn't he list the models, give the prices, mention where it could be bought, etc?

The National Gramophone Corp (of which he was Treasurer) specifically said (in the Phonoscope) that the new machines were "delayed" and hence there were no receipts for it prior to Feb of 1900.

The proper question must be asked and answered.

Allen