Sonora Invincible Phonograph

[phonogal]

Here's an ad I found that shows an Invincible I & II. From what I can read on it, it looks like the II had the wooden tone arm. Although it doesn't mention a metal tone arm on the Invincible I, it says the Invincible II now has the wooden tone arm like the Supreme and is priced higher.

[phonogal]

It looks like there was several grill styles for that model as well?

[Pathe Logical]

This looks like an Invincible to me, and if everything else is correct, I think it is very cheap regardless of the wrong reproducer!

I too have owned several Invincibles, and currently have an early and a later example (both in mahogany) in my collection. I believe I have ten different 1915-1925 Sonora machine catalogs. In the earliest catalog I have, the Grand is the top-of-the-line machine offered. Sometime later, the Invincible is introduced at the top spot. Later on, the "early/ornate" version of the Supreme (with matching - and relatively "plain" - record cabinet included for the $1000 price) is added to the line up as the most expensive model. By the way, I have never seen the "ornate" version of the Supreme record cabinet offered in any catalog --- so I don't know which version came first. Later, the plain version of the Supreme is offered for $750, and no mention of an accessory record cabinet is mentioned. Some observations follow:

Early Invincibles had metal tonearms --- wooden ones were introduced later (and for a time offered concurrently with metal ones) on this model.
Early Invincibles had metal lid supports --- wooden ones were introduced later on this model.
Early Invincibles had a motor meter in an arc shape (roughly nine inches long) --- later models have a motor meter with round dial type configuration.
Early Invincibles cabinets have a gradual taper down to just above the legs --- later ones taper more severely and are a bit narrower just above the legs.
All Invincibles I've seen have a raised/ornate molding (with a larger center carving) at the base of the front and sides of the cabinet. Lesser models do not have similar molding at the cabinet base. See the catalog scans in earlier posts.

Just curious --- Raphael, have you ever seen the exact machine cabinet you pictured in a Sonora catalog? I noticed your cabinet's front and grill are bowed/bulged both "left to right" and "top to bottom", while the sides are only bowed "top to bottom". I have never run across this variety before, and was going to email you about this when you had the machine up for sale. Very unusual grill design! The whole thing is gorgeous!

BTW: I would be surprised if a knowledgeable collector would sell an earlier/ornate version of the Sonora Supreme for under $10,000. $10,000 is the cheapest I've seen for any of the last five Supremes trading hands between knowledgeable collectors that I know of. But one could get lucky I guess...

Bob

[Jerry B.]

Many Sonoras have a parts drawer and the underside frequently states the model. Jerry

[Raphael]

Just curious --- Raphael, have you ever seen the exact machine cabinet you pictured in a Sonora catalog? I noticed your cabinet's front and grill are bowed/bulged both "left to right" and "top to bottom", while the sides are only bowed "top to bottom". I have never run across this variety before, and was going to email you about this when you had the machine up for sale. Very unusual grill design! The whole thing is gorgeous!

BTW: I would be surprised if a knowledgeable collector would sell an earlier/ornate version of the Sonora Supreme for under $10,000. $10,000 is the cheapest I've seen for any of the last five Supremes trading hands between knowledgeable collectors that I know of. But one could get lucky I guess...

Bob

Bob:

There always seem to be slight variations in the cabinet designs of these Invincibles and of the three I have owned they were all slightly different, including the grilles.

As for Supreme values, I agree that they are worth every bit of $10,000 (or more), in virtually any condition. One must keep in mind that in addition to phonograph collectors, there is an entirely different (and much larger) clientele for fancy, ornate furniture.

Raphael

[brianu]

I didn't say anything at first, but I've seen this machine on craigslist for a while, although it doesn't seem to be there any more... perhaps the person who started this thread was the buyer and believes he's struck gold. during the few months it was listed, the price dropped to about 600. I talked to the seller back around december when it first appeared, but never went to see it. he did send me a couple of (blurry... see attached) photos of the interior, though, and it looked fairly basic and on the smaller side... also, there didn't appear to be a drawer in the cabinet, but instead a drop door in front of the area where the drawer would normally be. in any event, it had its issues and I still don't think it was an invincible... perhaps a grand... I used to have one of those, and a baby grand, and a couple of other of the more ornate models, all of which would probably be valued at 10 percent or less of the cost of an invincible.