Torsades horn...

[daverob]

Anyone think a good to vg condition aluminum torsades horn is worth $400? (few bends, dents, etc)
Thanks,
Dave

[CarlosV]

I bought about two years ago a model C Pathé with a torsade horn both in reasonable condition, i.e., some oxidization on the aluminum horn, some dents but otherwise in good shape, no worm holes on the machine, and paid around 200 euro. I bought it more for the horn than the machine, as I had already a model B which is quite similar. These torsade horns don't show up very frequently: I had to drive about six hours to the middle of France to buy another machine, a quite rare Aspir, and the seller offered also this Pathé with the torsade, which I could not resist.

[Steve]

It depends on the SIZE and CONDITION of the horn to a degree. The largest Torsade horns are extremely desirable and found incredibly rarely as "spares". To put this into some perspective, a larger Pathé model like a "12" with a fine Torsade horn is highly prized by collectors and worth more than an equivalent HMV / Victor V with a wooden horn. These are "Holy Grail" finds on the continent.

Eight years ago I bid on a good example of a 12 with the torsade pavillon on http://www.ebay.fr but I ended up being the under-bidder at 3000 Euros! A good "12" with standard horn alone would probably fetch closer to 1500 Euros. The difference in value is solely down to that horn.

[Steve]

Maybe the market isn't as weak as previously thought? Or at least it's very strong in places and limited to real collectors' items. Or maybe I should qualify this by asking if the market for high quality items in smart highly presentable condition is still very strong? Another '12' has just sold for about 3000 Euros with a 52cm diameter plain spun aluminium horn on French eBay. I'm starting to believe that "torsade" isn't quite the ultimate anymore but "plain" wins every time. How else can it be explained that an '8' sold WITH Torsade horn only 6 weeks ago never got close to 1000 Euros in very respectable but slightly "tired" condition?

Now here lies the rub: the '8' paled in terms of condition when stood next to the '12'. The latter is the better machine too. So can we say condition is more vital than ever and that collectors want the best models, regardless of the horns? The most recent '12' wasn't perfect. In my opinion it had the wrong soundbox and elbow. The latter should have been much taller in profile so it could sit well over the internal bracket tubing. The former was a much later pot metal "sealed" type and should have been an all-ebonite type without the screwed on nickel plated bezzel. Did anyone note the early back-bracket arrangement usually found on later Model D's and E's? The motor was suspended from the hinged top ala HMV / Victor etc and not secured to the base like the post-1912 models. So it must have been a very early '12', a highly desirable machine on any day but in particularly clean smart condition, even if the aluminium horn wasn't the torsade type.

[Starkton]

A '12' is quite nice, but turns pale against a Pathé 14, regardless of the horn. Some time ago I saw what seemed to be an inside horn '14'. Does anybody know the model number of this?

[Steve]

I'm not sure what you mean by "inside horn 14"? Have you actually seen in person (rather than looking at a photograph of one) a '14' with outside horn? I've not even seen a photo of one apart from the example in Fabrizio/Paul's book "World Of Antique Phonographs". I believe it only came with a white painted horn option?

With that said, I'm never likely to find one so I'll settle for a '12' in good condition.

[Starkton]

I'm not sure what you mean by "inside horn 14"?

A Pathé with the case of a '14' and inside wooden horn. I saw it in person, but had no camera with me. Perhaps it was (professionally) rebuilt, but may also be a legit variety. Therefore I ask for the model number of this potential rarity from a catalogue.

[Steve]

A '12' is quite nice, but turns pale against a Pathé 14, regardless of the horn. Some time ago I saw what seemed to be an inside horn '14'. Does anybody know the model number of this?

I don't know what the particular model number is but I have a theory about this and I'm hoping someone (anyone!) will, in a bid to disprove my theory, unravel the mysteries of the Pathé range from 1910-14.

As far as I know the new range of numbered machines was first introduced in 1910, replacing the letter denomination series of 1906-1910. At first the Modele 12 was top of the horn model range with other outside horn models being given lower even numbers whilst the "Salon" or internal horn models received odd numbers. So horn models were 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12. Sometime between 1910 and 1912 and I'm assuming it was 1912, the Models 14 and 16 were added. These were two extremely expensive models aimed at the wealthiest customers in French society. Both models had huge motors purposefully designed and manufactured to fit the "grand" cabinets. Both models had a unique back-bracket with a lesser "throw" in the curvature due to the cabinet dimensions necessitating the tone-arm pivot to be closer to the back of the cabinet.

The '14' had gilt fittings and ornamental appliques. Whether it was due to the pricing or not (475 FF for the Modele '16' was shear eye-wateringly expensive), these two add-on luxury models were dropped around 1913 as sales were very limited. In 1913 the '18' was introduced as a "lesser luxury" model in mahogany cabinet. Initially it had a new larger motor but later versions simply used the same motor from the '12'. The cabinet was still of very generous proportions and must have sold quite well.

Unused '14' cabinet stock were converted into internal horn models as this was now the prevailing choice of gramophone type for most consumers and marketed at a cheaper whilst still "luxury" price, the modified 14 with fashionable internal horn could be sold off. The '18' model used up the larger back-brackets originally designed and intended for the '14' and '16' models. In 1914, the range of outside horn models was reduced back to a smaller number with emphasis on the cheapest best-selling models (2 and 4) and most expensive (12 and 18), with the Models 6, 8 and 10 being dropped altogether. The Model 12 was subsequently re-numbered to a 120 and the 18 became 180 with minor specification changes. So the 14 and 16 models were commercial follies.

As I said at the beginning, evidence is strictly circumstantial and this is just my theory based on what I have seen available online. I could be completely wrong.